Hello to all,Currently I am putting in unleaded gas in my Armada. Gas is very high. The gas station that I have been using is AM/PM gas. I honestly beleive all gas is the same. I have 2 questions.

1) Is AM/PM gas okay to use?

2) Should I be using unleaded gas?

Thank you

Hello to all,Currently I am putting in unleaded gas in my Armada. Gas is very high. The gas station that I have been using is AM/PM gas. I honestly beleive all gas is the same. I have 2 questions.

1) Is AM/PM gas okay to use?

2) Should I be using unleaded gas?

Thank you
Had to do a search to find out what AM/PM gas was. Looks like a gas vendor, not type of gas like gasahol. All gas theoretically should be the same if rated with the same octane. Some have additives to help clean your motor. In reality, some stations have contaminated gas, lying gas meters, leaky tanks, etc. If you aren't haveing any problems with gas from a particular station, I'd stick with it.

Second, unleaded is fine. Our SUVs were made to run on just about anything and will adjust themselves to the octane of the gas electronically. If you put super in, you should realize an extra 10 hp over regular. As long as you have no Knocks, etc. go for it.

check this out and make your own judgement

http://toptiergas.com/

2) Should I be using unleaded gas?

Its all unleaded. The panty hosers, as Car and Driver calls them (marketing guys from Proctor and Gamble that went to Detroit, but I digress :eek: ), have called them different names. But basically you get from lowest to highest octane Regular Unleaded, Mid-Grade Unleaded, Premium Unleaded. So yes, you should use unleaded. A leaded gas would surely muck up your engine. Maybe you can buy that in Mexico, I don't know.
There are multitudes of gas requirements by state,some by location and time of year, so the exact mixture of gas you get can be different all over the country, or the State of Cal. for that matter. Bottom line, what TribleBlack said ....If you aren't haveing any problems with gas from a particular station, I'd stick with it...
I'll second that motion. I buy gas at Costco or Safeway (Grocery Store) myself.

If you put super in, you should realize an extra 10 hp over regular. As long as you have no Knocks, etc. go for it.

that is totally false. you will notice no gains with higher octane gasolines. your ecu is mapped to run with 87 octane and that is what it will do no matter what octane you put in. At the MOST you MIGHT notice an increase in fuel economy but it will probably be negligable and not worth the extra money. also, you raise your octane level so that you DONT knock.....knocking is the early detonation of the air fuel mixture in the cylinder.....if this is occurring it could be for many reasons....but the higher the octane the higher the combustion point for the fuel which makes it harder to ignite unlike lower octanes.....this is why forced induction vehicles (turbo's/superchargers) usually REQUIRE higher octanes, so that they dont knock

On average the difference between low grade and high grade gas is about 20 cents per gallon in my area..Filling up with 25 gallons saves you five bucks.Put that money in the bank and save for a new engine.
Any high performance engine making the horsepower they do should have high octane fuel in them.Add in a towing factor or upgraded exhaust or intake you would crazy to skimp on the fuel.Just my opinion on the topic.

P.S.-I didn't buy it for the gas mileage.

Well,
92TripleBlack does have a valid point though.
By using higher octane fuel, you or the computer can advance the timing on the camshaft. Buy advancing your timing just to the point of where it starts to knock, that maximizes hp.

So it is totally reasonable that running 92 octane vs. 87 in the Armada can yield an additional 10 hp. If you were correct, then why would any car mfg spec in premium gas?

Bottom line, the higher the octane, the more power you can get out of it. As long as timing is adjusted.

The computer can advance the ignition timing, but it can't advance the camshaft timing on the 5.6 engine.

Well,
92TripleBlack does have a valid point though.
By using higher octane fuel, you or the computer can advance the timing on the camshaft. Buy advancing your timing just to the point of where it starts to knock, that maximizes hp.

So it is totally reasonable that running 92 octane vs. 87 in the Armada can yield an additional 10 hp. If you were correct, then why would any car mfg spec in premium gas?

Bottom line, the higher the octane, the more power you can get out of it. As long as timing is adjusted.



still false....unless the ecu can detect the octane difference, which it cant, and then adjust the intake/exhaust cam timing, which it cant, you will not yeild gains from higher octane fuel...it would be stupid to advance to where you start to knock....that would be like running your engine to where it would start to throw a rod..that is rediculous to even think of......higher octane doesnt do anything exctra unless the ECU is programmed to use it.....do some research before you say what you think is right, as oppossed to what is right.....i dont think it is fair of you to give peopel who do not know better false info because you think its right

higher octane can actually be BAD for your car that requires a lower octane:


http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aabyb100401.htm


Origin of the 'Higher Octane is Better' Concept
Higher octane gasoline did reduce engine knock in older engines that used carburetors to regulate the air/gas mix. The older engines could not regulate the air/fuel mix going into the engine as efficiently as a computerized fuel injector. A carburetor in need of adjustment could cause too much fuel to be mixed with the air, which meant the gasoline would not burn completely. The excess gas soaked into carbon deposits and caused a premature ignition of the gasoline from the heat of the engine cylinder. The premature ignition made a sound that came to be known as 'engine knock.' When this happened, people would change to the higher octane/slower burning gasoline to resist the premature burn, thus minimizing the knock. Upping the octane was beneficial then, but engines and gasoline formulations changed.

Since the mid-1980s engines use fuel injectors with computers to accurately control the air/fuel mix over all temperature and environment ranges. The accuracy of the fuel injectors and computers is based on using the recommended gasoline for that engine. Most cars are designed to burn regular unleaded gas with an octane rating of 87. If the vehicle needs a higher octane rating this requirement is noted in the owner’s manual and usually under the fuel gauge and by the gas tank.

Gasoline Factors That Matter
The quality of gasoline and the additive package usually affect the rate of engine wear more than the octane rating. Basically what this means is that it matters more where you buy your gas than which grade you purchase.

Regular Unleaded Gasoline
The recommended gasoline for most cars is regular 87 octane. One common misconception is that higher octane gasoline contains more cleaning additives than lower octane gas. All octane grades of all brands of gasoline contain engine cleaning detergent additives to protect against engine deposit build-up. In fact, using a gasoline with too high of an octane rating may cause damage to the emissions system.

• Gasoline and Octane Ratings - This article defines octane ratings and provides an overview of how gasoline in made.


Mid-Grade Gasoline
The octane ratings 'regular', 'mid-grade', and 'premium' are not consistent. In the United States, for example, one state may require a minimum octane rating of 92 for premium gasoline, while another may allow an octane rating of 90 to be premium. Check the octane rating on the yellow sticker on the gas pump rather than relying on descriptive labels.

• The Low-Down on High Octane Gasoline - Includes information about the inconsistency of ratings across the US.


Premium Gasoline
Certain high performance engines benefit from use of high octane fuel. For other engines, using a fuel with a higher octane rating than the vehicle requires sends unburned fuel into the emissions system and catalytic converter. This puts unecessary stress on the emissions system. For some vehicles, a rotten egg smell coming from the tailpipe signals use of too-high octane gas.

Malik112099, you can argure this all you want and present links to websites, but the fact still remains that almost all car mfgs have systems in place for some kind of variable timing like Hondas VTEC.
There are many other factors like altitude that affect detonation. I have been an engine tuner for 25 years and there's a reason we run much higher octane fuel for racing.
It's only logical that different grades of gas produce different performance levels. Or we would only have one grade.
I have dyno'd over 200 cars and tests were clearly done to show engine output by changing octane and timing. This is as obvious as 1+1=2

I have never stated that higher octane is better. I am only stating that there is a sweet spot that depends on many factors. Higher altitudes require lower octane, period. Do some research and you'll find out. If your engine is knocking, you should put in higher octane fuel.

I don't want to get negative on this very positive forum, but I have been doing this for many years and your articles on gas quality don't mean squat.

Go dyno your armada with 85 octane, and then re-run the same tests with 92 octane. Then superimpose both graphs into one. The 92 octane graph will clearly be above the 85 octane one.

You can't argue real world results.

I'm surprised you would argue such a simple thing.

You forgot to highlight this statement from you're own article, "Premium Gasoline:
Certain high performance engines benefit from use of high octane fuel"

Malik112099, you can argure this all you want and present links to websites, but the fact still remains that almost all car mfgs have systems in place for some kind of variable timing like Hondas VTEC.
There are many other factors like altitude that affect detonation. I have been an engine tuner for 25 years and there's a reason we run much higher octane fuel for racing.
It's only logical that different grades of gas produce different performance levels. Or we would only have one grade.
I have dyno'd over 200 cars and tests were clearly done to show engine output by changing octane and timing. This is as obvious as 1+1=2

I have never stated that higher octane is better. I am only stating that there is a sweet spot that depends on many factors. Higher altitudes require lower octane, period. Do some research and you'll find out. If your engine is knocking, you should put in higher octane fuel.

I don't want to get negative on this very positive forum, but I have been doing this for many years and your articles on gas quality don't mean squat.

Go dyno your armada with 85 octane, and then re-run the same tests with 92 octane. Then superimpose both graphs into one. The 92 octane graph will clearly be above the 85 octane one.

You can't argue real world results.

I'm surprised you would argue such a simple thing.

You forgot to highlight this statement from you're own article, "Premium Gasoline:
Certain high performance engines benefit from use of high octane fuel"

the armada engine is NOT a high performance engine....please present a dyno for the armada to prove this. you HAVE to run higher octane fuel for racing because those engines are either NA tuned or FI tuned...both require higher octane ratings to prevent detonation......that is the main reason.....a high performance engine runniing lower octane WILL knock (STi's, Evo 8's, SRT-4s, etc) REQUIRE a higher octane due to the performance of the engines...this is to protect the engine, not to get more power out of it.....higher octane gas will produce the same hp figures as the ebay "chip" will...




also....not every car mfr has every engine with variable timing....this shows how much you dont know...and not all variable timing is like VTEC either...do some research

Well I'll leave this alone. I think the other members of ClubArmada can make their own judgement.

WHAT DOES A LOW OCTANE VALUE MEAN, TO ME?
In the absolute worst case, if the fuel is too low octane, it may spontaneously ignite before the spark plug fires due to thermal rises from the heat of compression or from hot spots in the cylinder itself. This kind of ignition is called pre-ignition (as opposed to knocking) and is a pathological case which will just turn an engine to scrap. Diesel fuel is low enough octane that mixing it with gasoline can cause pre-ignition!

What usually happens, and what we usually call knocking or pinging is that the fuel/air mixture does not ignite before the spark plug fires but does ignite spontaneously after that. The sparkplug fires and this causes an immediate, rapid, rise in combustion chamber pressure. This causes fuel on the other side of the flame-front to ignite before the flame-front reaches it. In turn, this causes combustion chamber pressure to rise even more rapidly. The result is an explosion inside the combustion chamber as opposed to the desired rapid burning.


WHAT DOES A HIGH OCTANE VALUE MEAN, TO ME?
A high octane rating ensures that it takes a REALLY hot ignition source to ignite the fuel (such as a spark plug or the flame-front itself) and not just the rise in pressure & temperature that's a result of normal combustion. Note that the thermal rises in the cylinder are in direct proportion to the compression ratio of the engine (more below). The higher the compression ratio, the higher the octane of the fuel that's needed.

Again, if the mixture in a gasoline engine ignites before the spark plug fires, we call that "pre-ignition." Pre-ignition can damage an engine before you finish reading this sentence. To reiterate, what we're really concerned with is called "knock" and that's the spontaneous ignition of the fuel-air mixure ahead of the flame-front as a result of the rise in cylinder pressure caused by the onset of ignition (caused by the firing of the spark plug).

http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/GArticles/octane.html

Yes cars can detect octane - Indirectly most cars since 1996 can sort of detect octane. Most cars toay are set up with knock sensors that will retard timing when detonation starts to occur. The main reason for this is insufficient octane. As an example, high performance cars with compression ratios approaching 9.5 to 10 require 93 octane, California has a max of 91 octane, therefore, the knock sensor intercedes and retards timing. The question is whether the Armada is set up (compression and timing) to take advantage of higher octane, since it is advertised for use with low octane.

I would say a 10 hp increase might be low, at some points on the hp curve it might be greater, once again, it depends on how the Armada a/f and timing is mapped.

are you people serious? do you really still think higher octane gives you HP? The ecu might be able to detect kock and retard/advance timing as necessary to counter act it, but that is NOT octane detection NOR is it a HP increase.....the manula SAYS 87 octane...dont you think if the Armada could make an extra safe 10+ hp , dont you think Nissan would have advertised 315hp instead of 305 or whatever it is? think about it....


Well I'll leave this alone. I think the other members of ClubArmada can make their own judgement.

i thought so.........

As a matter of fact Nissan does advertise the higher gas mileage rating for 93 octane fuel, it is called the Infiniti QX56. 315HP on 93 octane fuel (same 5.6 L motor as the Armada).

basically the only thing you need to do is keep steady with the octane you put in, don't switch it up all the time.

As a matter of fact Nissan does advertise the higher gas mileage rating for 93 octane fuel, it is called the Infiniti QX56. 315HP on 93 octane fuel (same 5.6 L motor as the Armada).

um..why isnt the ARMADA advertised with 315hp then?

Wow...what you dont realize is that Nissan uses the 3.5L V6 in the 350Z and the G35... in the 350Z it makes 287hp, in the G35 it makes 298hp ... wow same exact engine but different hp figures....its called a returned ECU/engine ... do some research.....


The manual in the QX56 says 91 octane.....

The Armada and QX56 has a comp ratio of 9.8:1 ... sothat means the heads havent been changed and neither has the pistons..so guess what!?!?!? Differently tuned ECU!!!!!!!!!! try this......get a QX56 ECU and swap it out with yours, get higher octane and i bet youi will have 15 more horses

Malik112099,
There is this thing called marketing. Don't believe al the specs you see out there.
Infiniti does not want to position the Armada and QX56 with the same power rating.

You basically just stated something that makes you look like ***.

You stated the Armada and QX56 have the same compression and have different HP ratings because the QX56 uses higher octane fuel.

Stop slamming other people til you got your facts straight.

um..why isnt the ARMADA advertised with 315hp then?

Wow...what you dont realize is that Nissan uses the 3.5L V6 in the 350Z and the G35... in the 350Z it makes 287hp, in the G35 it makes 298hp ... wow same exact engine but different hp figures....its called a returned ECU/engine ... do some research.....


The manual in the QX56 says 91 octane.....

The Armada and QX56 has a comp ratio of 9.8:1 ... sothat means the heads havent been changed and neither has the pistons..so guess what!?!?!? Differently tuned ECU!!!!!!!!!! try this......get a QX56 ECU and swap it out with yours, get higher octane and i bet youi will have 15 more horses
Sorry man but you are way off. The motors, computers, compression, everything between the QX 56 and Armada are identical. They use electronic knock sensors to detect the point at which the motor will knock and then electronically advance the timing to match the limit of the gas. With Super in the tank, they have 10 more hp than without. They do this for marketing reasons. This way the Infiniti dealer can say he has 10 hp more than the Armada so give me $10 grand more. Conversely, if you put regular gas in the infiniti, it will loose 10 hp. My G35 is the same way. Rated at 260 with super, the manual says you can use regular, but you will loose some performance. I've spoken to the head mechanic at my Infiniti dealer and he verified that they were identical, the fuel difference was the reason for the power difference, and the programing in the computers were the same.

As to your "research", I own a G35. I've done the research. The 350 Z is rated higher than the G35. The Sedan Auto had 260, up to the coup stick with 280. This year its up to 298. The base Z has 287 and performance versions have 300. In '04, the 350Z had more HP than the G35 because:
It had a higher redline of 7000 vs 6500.

Hmmm, 280 vs. 287, 298 vs 300.
They just jacked up the rev limiter on the G35 and guess what, it makes 2 hp different than the 350Z. The minor differences between them are due to intake and exhaust routing. All these motors were rated with super. But the point of this is that this is not relevant in the arguement of the Armada vs. QX56 ratings. If you put regular in the G35 or 350Z, you would lower your hp by about, guess what, 10 hp as their computers do the same thing the Armada's does. It even says this in the G35 manual. :duh:

Do you even have a Nissan/Infiniti? All I see is a Hyundai. :thumbup:

You basically just stated something that makes you look like ***.

You stated the Armada and QX56 have the same compression and have different HP ratings because the QX56 uses higher octane fuel.QUOTE]

you just stated something that proves you dont know how to read..i said they have different ECUs ..... with different fuel maps that take advantage of different octane ratings



[QUOTE=92TripleBlack]Sorry man but you are way off. The motors, computers, compression, everything between the QX 56 and Armada are identical. They use electronic knock sensors to detect the point at which the motor will knock and then electronically advance the timing to match the limit of the gas. With Super in the tank, they have 10 more hp than without. They do this for marketing reasons. This way the Infiniti dealer can say he has 10 hp more than the Armada so give me $10 grand more. Conversely, if you put regular gas in the infiniti, it will loose 10 hp. My G35 is the same way. Rated at 260 with super, the manual says you can use regular, but you will loose some performance. I've spoken to the head mechanic at my Infiniti dealer and he verified that they were identical, the fuel difference was the reason for the power difference, and the programing in the computers were the same.

As to your "research", I own a G35. I've done the research. The 350 Z is rated higher than the G35. The Sedan Auto had 260, up to the coup stick with 280. This year its up to 298. The base Z has 287 and performance versions have 300. In '04, the 350Z had more HP than the G35 because:
It had a higher redline of 7000 vs 6500.

Hmmm, 280 vs. 287, 298 vs 300.
They just jacked up the rev limiter on the G35 and guess what, it makes 2 hp different than the 350Z. The minor differences between them are due to intake and exhaust routing. All these motors were rated with super. But the point of this is that this is not relevant in the arguement of the Armada vs. QX56 ratings. If you put regular in the G35 or 350Z, you would lower your hp by about, guess what, 10 hp as their computers do the same thing the Armada's does. It even says this in the G35 manual.

Do you even have a Nissan/Infiniti? All I see is a Hyundai.


Octane is a description of how tolerant the fuel is to compression and heat. More octane, means you can use it in a engine that subjects the mixture of fuel/air to higher compression. Now, octane does NOTHING for you unless you also are applying it to a engine that takes advanatge of it, through higher compression. Note, higher compression generally translates into higher efficiency (more work for same fuel).

http://www.xcceleration.com/roadtuning.htm

To gain the extra potential from your vehicle, you have to alter parameters within the performance ECU, based on the effect of the Real World, actual driving conditions, on your car. These include values for timing, fuelling, air flow, rev limits and boost control (where applicable).

An aftermarket ECU will have been re-mapped to allow all these parameters to be pushed to the maximum safe, reliable value thus creating a more responsive, more powerful and a more torque delivering car.


http://www.motortrend.com/features/scenes/112_0412_suvotytesting/index10.html

Infiniti version of the Armada's four-cam V-8 is tuned to produce 10 more horsepower and five extra pound-feet of torque (315 horses and 390 pound-feet)



http://www.fourwheeler.com/roadtests/129_0404_qx/

The QX56 is powered by Nissan's impressive 5.6L DOHC Endurance V-8 engine tweaked to produce 10 more horsepower (315 hp at 4,900 rpm vs. the Armada's 305 hp at 4,900 rpm) and 5 more lb-ft of torque (390 lb-ft of torque at 3,600 rpm vs. the Armada's 385 lb-ft of torque at 3,600 rpm).


Hmm..tweaked...tuned.....nothing about higher octane..maybe they mean the ECU was tweaked/tuned for more hp, but oh my! now because of the tweaking/tuning, you need 91 octane so you dont knock! imagine that....remapped ecu's making more hp and REQUIRING higher octane rather than the higher octane fuel alone making more hp!!! same with the G35 and 350Z ... once again...do some research ......


octane does NOT make higher hp...higher hp engines REQUIRE higher octane....is it that hard to believe?





also..the type of car i own has nothing to do with what octane in fuel is for ... just because you own a Nissan, it doesnt mean you know anything about it


what type of octane do you put in your VW? why?

the armada engine is NOT a high performance engine....please present a dyno for the armada to prove this. you HAVE to run higher octane fuel for racing because those engines are either NA tuned or FI tuned...both require higher octane ratings to prevent detonation......that is the main reason.....a high performance engine runniing lower octane WILL knock (STi's, Evo 8's, SRT-4s, etc) REQUIRE a higher octane due to the performance of the engines...this is to protect the engine, not to get more power out of it.....higher octane gas will produce the same hp figures as the ebay "chip" will...




also....not every car mfr has every engine with variable timing....this shows how much you dont know...and not all variable timing is like VTEC either...do some research

Sorry for the interruption! All Nissan/Infiniti vehicles sold in the US and Canada with DOHC and 4 valve/cylinder systems are considered sophisticated and high performance engines including Armada.

Some of GM, Dodge, and Ford with pushrod/OHV systems are old tech engines and not consider high performance. However, the Corvette, its pushrod engine is considered high performance.

Sorry for the interruption! All Nissan/Infiniti vehicles sold in the US and Canada with DOHC and 4 valve/cylinder systems are consider sophisticated and high performance engines including Armada.

Some of GM, Dodge, and Ford with pushrod/OHV systems are old tech engines and not consider high performance. However, the Corvette, its pushrod engine is consider high performance.


if the armada is "high performance" then why doesnt it req 91 not to knock along with most other nissans?

An aftermarket ECU will have been re-mapped to allow all these parameters to be pushed to the maximum safe, reliable value thus creating a more responsive, more powerful and a more torque delivering car.

Infiniti version of the Armada's four-cam V-8 is tuned to produce 10 more horsepower and five extra pound-feet of torque (315 horses and 390 pound-feet)

what type of octane do you put in your VW? why?

You are correct until you hit here. The ECU of these cars and the G35 and others are self adjusting. They will change the mapping based on inputs. One of these inputs is the electronic knock sensor. This will change the computers mapping, the timiing, etc. Many cars do not have this and require an aftermarket ECU to accomplish this. Additionally, you can tune our ECUs to accommodate other aftermarket accessories. The ECU is not setup for example to adjust everything for say a SuperCharger. Again, from the head mechanic at my Infiniti dealer, the Nissan mechanic, Titan guys etc, you don't know what you are talking about in this situation. :clueless:

Also, did you know the transmissions also learn on these vehicles. They change the shift points based on driver behavior. Always flooring it, shift points for acceleration. Feather the gas, shift points for high mileage. etc.

I put regular in the VW because this is what it is designed to use. Premium would be a waste as that ECU, unlike the Armada and G35, is not equipped to remap for higher octane.

And the car matters because it shows you are a Troll that thinks he knows it all rather than actually finding out something new. I wouldn't go on the Hyundai board and say blah blah blah about your car. I'd ask questions and be enlightened. :usuck:

My girlfriend's Acura RSX Type S requires 91 octane in the owner's manual.Does that make it a "high performance engine"?When you remap an ECU aren't you essentially leaning the motor alittle more to get more horsepwer.That is the reason why you would need the higher octane rating.Just my opinion again.Thanks for the entertainment.

You are correct until you hit here. The ECU of these cars and the G35 and others are self adjusting. They will change the mapping based on inputs. One of these inputs is the electronic knock sensor. This will change the computers mapping, the timiing, etc. Many cars do not have this and require an aftermarket ECU to accomplish this. Additionally, you can tune our ECUs to accommodate other aftermarket accessories. The ECU is not setup for example to adjust everything for say a SuperCharger. Again, from the head mechanic at my Infiniti dealer, the Nissan mechanic, Titan guys etc, you don't know what you are talking about in this situation. :clueless:

Also, did you know the transmissions also learn on these vehicles. They change the shift points based on driver behavior. Always flooring it, shift points for acceleration. Feather the gas, shift points for high mileage. etc.

I put regular in the VW because this is what it is designed to use. Premium would be a waste as that ECU, unlike the Armada and G35, is not equipped to remap for higher octane.

And the car matters because it shows you are a Troll that thinks he knows it all rather than actually finding out something new. I wouldn't go on the Hyundai board and say blah blah blah about your car. I'd ask questions and be enlightened. :usuck:


transmissions dont learn....thats rediculous....they shift based on how far the pedal is smashed to the floor......

troll or not, ive done more to the armada than you have and you own one......

head mechanic doesnt mean ****...did he design the engine? has he torn one down and rebult it? or does he just read the tech manual and do what it says to do?

yeah..ecu's can adjust timing and a few other things based on sensor readings..but the fuel map remains the same...for a given amount of air at a certain temp it will put in X amount of fuel....period..its like a damn equation it constantly has to solve for X (fuel) on the fly ...... if you put in higher octane fuel it knows no difference..there isnt an octane sensor that the ECU reads.....makes no sense..the ECU performs based on the engine sensor outputs..if it is knocking (which the armada will not do with 87) it will adjust the timing for it not to knock...since it already doesnt knock with 87..it wont do anything with 91 octane..it just wont knock..so no timing retard/advance necessary....

if you put 2/3 tank 87, and 1/3 tank 91.... what will the ecu do? according to your logic the ecu will adjust for an octane rating of 88.33 ... somehow i dont think so.....


so once again .... if the ECU is pre-tuned to make more hp on the same engine....it will probably require higher octane to not knock

transmissions dont learn....thats rediculous....they shift based on how far the pedal is smashed to the floor......

troll or not, ive done more to the armada than you have and you own one......

head mechanic doesnt mean ****...did he design the engine? has he torn one down and rebult it? or does he just read the tech manual and do what it says to do?

yeah..ecu's can adjust timing and a few other things based on sensor readings..but the fuel map remains the same...for a given amount of air at a certain temp it will put in X amount of fuel....period..its like a damn equation it constantly has to solve for X (fuel) on the fly ...... if you put in higher octane fuel it knows no difference..there isnt an octane sensor that the ECU reads.....makes no sense..the ECU performs based on the engine sensor outputs..if it is knocking (which the armada will not do with 87) it will adjust the timing for it not to knock...since it already doesnt knock with 87..it wont do anything with 91 octane..it just wont knock..so no timing retard/advance necessary....

if you put 2/3 tank 87, and 1/3 tank 91.... what will the ecu do? according to your logic the ecu will adjust for an octane rating of 88.33 ... somehow i dont think so.....


so once again .... if the ECU is pre-tuned to make more hp on the same engine....it will probably require higher octane to not knock
Here's the learning shift points. Guess these guys are lying also. So now you have owners from 2 sites lying and disagreeing with you. Should I try the Titan owners site also?
Gas: http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49388&highlight=octane
http://www.clubarmada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780&highlight=qx56
Shift points:http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375&highlight=transmission+learn
Titan HP and Octane:
http://www.titantalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19306&highlight=315
And yes, it would adjust based on the octane, so a mix would give you the inbetween performance.

So just because your vehicle doesn't have these features, doesn't mean ours don't. Why do you think we spent more than $10 for our cars? :machinegu

Here's the learning shift points. Guess these guys are lying also. So now you have owners from 2 sites lying and disagreeing with you. Should I try the Titan owners site also?
Gas: http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49388&highlight=octane
http://www.clubarmada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780&highlight=qx56
Shift points:http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375&highlight=transmission+learn
Titan HP and Octane:
http://www.titantalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19306&highlight=315
And yes, it would adjust based on the octane, so a mix would give you the inbetween performance.

So just because your vehicle doesn't have these features, doesn't mean ours don't. Why do you think we spent more than $10 for our cars? :machinegu

so you show me what people say as oppossed to facts and tell me my car is cheap...you have no arguement..why dont you support yourself with technical facts instead of put downs...for 25 years of tuner knowledge you sure are small minded and dont know a whole lot

Okay, look, I think it's fine we're having a discussion on this topic, but I think we should just look at the facts and then we can agree to disagree.

I actually brought my Armada in today to get my brakes done for the 4th time and went to the Infiniti dealership 50 yards down the street to kill about 3 hours.

It was slow and I spent an hour and a half talking to the head service guy. I forgot his title exactly. So I asked him about the QX56 and Armada octane and ECU stuff.

He said that many of their clients with QX56's ask if it's okay to use 87 octane fuel, even though the manual states Premium, because of the high gas prices lately. 3 months ago, they ran 3 of their "Executive QX56's" with 87 octane for 3 tanks in a row to see what would happen. And the answer was they got a little knocking sometimes. Usually before the QX56 warmed up all the way and they were pushing it hard.

This is EXACTLY the same thing as my Armada. It only knocks sometimes cold under load, and then if I use 89 or 91 or 92, the knock goes away completely. I can't feel any hp difference, but I can for sure hear the knock or no knock.

Conclusion 1: SAME ENGINE EXACTLY

Then I asked him if the diagnostic tools and specs were the same. The answer was that the tools are all labeled VK56DE.

He gave me a print out. Here's what it says exactly:
VK56DE
The VK56DE is a 5.6 L (5552 cc) version built in Decherd, TN. Bore is 98 mm and stroke is 92 mm. Output is 305 hp (227 kW) at 4900 RPM with 385 ft.lbf (522 Nm) of torque at 3600 RPM.

Applications:

Nissan Pathfinder Armada
Nissan Titan
Infiniti QX56

You asked for research, here it is.

Conclusion 2: SAME ENGINE AGAIN

Anyway, these are the facts that I obtained today. I believe they clearly show that the engines are identical. And that the ratings are all based on gas used. I've even heard that the numbers for Titan, Armada, and QX56 were all understated for insurance and DOT reasons.

I guess the only thing left is to get access to both an Armada and QX56, a dyno, and a gas station.

You probably still are not convinced, but that's cool. No hard feelings.
On a positive side, I think it's cool that you didn't start posting pictures of your 5 Titan and armada's claiming they were yours like someone was doing over on another forum.

Okay, look, I think it's fine we're having a discussion on this topic, but I think we should just look at the facts and then we can agree to disagree.

I actually brought my Armada in today to get my brakes done for the 4th time and went to the Infiniti dealership 50 yards down the street to kill about 3 hours.

It was slow and I spent an hour and a half talking to the head service guy. I forgot his title exactly. So I asked him about the QX56 and Armada octane and ECU stuff.

He said that many of their clients with QX56's ask if it's okay to use 87 octane fuel, even though the manual states Premium, because of the high gas prices lately. 3 months ago, they ran 3 of their "Executive QX56's" with 87 octane for 3 tanks in a row to see what would happen. And the answer was they got a little knocking sometimes. Usually before the QX56 warmed up all the way and they were pushing it hard.

This is EXACTLY the same thing as my Armada. It only knocks sometimes cold under load, and then if I use 89 or 91 or 92, the knock goes away completely. I can't feel any hp difference, but I can for sure hear the knock or no knock.

Conclusion 1: SAME ENGINE EXACTLY

Then I asked him if the diagnostic tools and specs were the same. The answer was that the tools are all labeled VK56DE.

He gave me a print out. Here's what it says exactly:
VK56DE
The VK56DE is a 5.6 L (5552 cc) version built in Decherd, TN. Bore is 98 mm and stroke is 92 mm. Output is 305 hp (227 kW) at 4900 RPM with 385 ft.lbf (522 Nm) of torque at 3600 RPM.

Applications:

Nissan Pathfinder Armada
Nissan Titan
Infiniti QX56

You asked for research, here it is.

Conclusion 2: SAME ENGINE AGAIN

Anyway, these are the facts that I obtained today. I believe they clearly show that the engines are identical. And that the ratings are all based on gas used. I've even heard that the numbers for Titan, Armada, and QX56 were all understated for insurance and DOT reasons.

I guess the only thing left is to get access to both an Armada and QX56, a dyno, and a gas station.

You probably still are not convinced, but that's cool. No hard feelings.
On a positive side, I think it's cool that you didn't start posting pictures of your 5 Titan and armada's claiming they were yours like someone was doing over on another forum.


we have already determined that they are the same exact engine...that wasnt in question......why didnt you have them print out fuel map parameters directly from the armada ecu and the QX56 ecu?

the SAME ENGINE EXACTLY can easily be running on a ecu with different parameters.....


also...when are yall gonna realize that just because somone is the "head service guy" or the "head mechanic" it doesnt mean ****.....thats like asking the guy selling you the car questions about it.....the people selling/working on these cars at the dealers are the peopel who probably know the least about it.......thats what nissan engineers are for

Actually, the point of driving the QX56 with 87 and knocking, and not knocking with 89, which is the same as my Armada, is actually the point.
Since we don't have any factual data on if the ECU's are mapped the same, we can use the best data we have.
My reasoning is that since both SUV's exhibit the same patterns using the same gas octanes, that the mapping is the same.

I think this has gone about as far as it can go without someone having some real hard proof.

This an entertaining thread.

Okay, every one except Malik run 2 tanks of reg unleaded and then dyno. Then run 2 tanks of premium, and then dyno. Post the results and wow, will we really will care about mapping and ECU and trany learning.

Actually, the point of driving the QX56 with 87 and knocking, and not knocking with 89, which is the same as my Armada, is actually the point.
Since we don't have any factual data on if the ECU's are mapped the same, we can use the best data we have.
My reasoning is that since both SUV's exhibit the same patterns using the same gas octanes, that the mapping is the same.

I think this has gone about as far as it can go without someone having some real hard proof.


you arent using factual data..did you use a knock sensor to determine that your truck is knocking? all you used is what some guy told you...



but yeah..this has gone as far as it can go without someone actually getting their hands on the armada and QX56 ecu's at the same time

2) Should I be using unleaded gas?


But I think we're all in agreement that bzo (that started the thread) should use unleaded (as opposed to :confused: kerosene? diesel?) :D

Is that how this whole thread started???
I think it's safe to agree with you that unleaded would be a good choice.
Where I live, there are no other choices. Well, propane maybe.

But I think we're all in agreement that bzo (that started the thread) should use unleaded (as opposed to :confused: kerosene? diesel?) :D



lol .. yeah

I'm more into using whale oil myself. Burns cleaner and you can make perfume out of it if you want. Support your local Inuit Indian tribe!

OK, slowly put down your fuel nozzle and back away from the pump and nobody will get hurt. Whew, glad I stayed out of this one.

Is that High octane or low octane whale oil? :goteam:

Is that High octane or low octane whale oil? :goteam:
I prefer Killer and stay away from Sperm... whale oil!

To get back to the subject somewhat, the Titan, QX56, and Armada use the same moter and ECU. This was confirmed by a Nissan Engineer at the plant where they build them. Here's the link. http://www.titantalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26659


1. The overseas models are not rated at SAE Net numbers, as we use here in the US. They use SAE gross. If you read the fine print on the specs you will see that. They work out to be the same when you use the correction factors.

2. Infiniti's QX-56 rates its numbers with premium fuel. There is a lot of pretty sophisticated data here from testing by some of our engineering savvy members, pointing out that if you run premium in your Titan (especially 93), our ECU's are of the new generation "smart" design which will continue to advance timing until knock is detected. This will produce 10 more horses and 10 more pounds of torque. You end up with the same numbers as the QX-56.

3. Run regular in the QX-56 (it is fine to do so), and you get our horsepower numbers.

4. Any differences in the exhaust systems between the Titan and the Armada/Infiniti are so minor in performance as to be within the range of testing errors. Both body styles, whether pick up or SUV are essentially producing identical 0-60 and quarter mile times.

5. At least one Nissan engine engineer who is a regular member of this site has confirmed anonymously to me that the Titan, Armada and Infiniti engines all go down the same assembly line at the Tennessee engine plant, all receive the same parts, the same machine work and the same assembly and use the same ECU. Compression ratios are all the same.

There is no difference in the engines and no meaningful difference in the exhaust systems, although the cat-back parts of the systems may vary slightly due to the different wheel-bases of the vehicles.

So as I said, the drivetrains are identical except for fuel used in testing.
:comphead: :nana:

To get back to the subject somewhat, the Titan, QX56, and Armada use the same moter and ECU. This was confirmed by a Nissan Engineer at the plant where they build them. Here's the link. http://www.titantalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26659


1. The overseas models are not rated at SAE Net numbers, as we use here in the US. They use SAE gross. If you read the fine print on the specs you will see that. They work out to be the same when you use the correction factors.

2. Infiniti's QX-56 rates its numbers with premium fuel. There is a lot of pretty sophisticated data here from testing by some of our engineering savvy members, pointing out that if you run premium in your Titan (especially 93), our ECU's are of the new generation "smart" design which will continue to advance timing until knock is detected. This will produce 10 more horses and 10 more pounds of torque. You end up with the same numbers as the QX-56.

3. Run regular in the QX-56 (it is fine to do so), and you get our horsepower numbers.

4. Any differences in the exhaust systems between the Titan and the Armada/Infiniti are so minor in performance as to be within the range of testing errors. Both body styles, whether pick up or SUV are essentially producing identical 0-60 and quarter mile times.

5. At least one Nissan engine engineer who is a regular member of this site has confirmed anonymously to me that the Titan, Armada and Infiniti engines all go down the same assembly line at the Tennessee engine plant, all receive the same parts, the same machine work and the same assembly and use the same ECU. Compression ratios are all the same.

There is no difference in the engines and no meaningful difference in the exhaust systems, although the cat-back parts of the systems may vary slightly due to the different wheel-bases of the vehicles.

So as I said, the drivetrains are identical except for fuel used in testing.
:comphead: :nana:


ok...fair enough...the ecu advances timing until knock is detected......so the opctane isnt giving it the hp..the ecu is just advancing timing and it is able to do this because the fuel detonates at a higher temp...so the advance in timing is giving you the hp, not the actual octane....because if actual octane gave you hp it would in any engine, which it wont in non variable timing engines....can we agree on that?

yes we all agree ;) now...
b4 a new model comes out ( armada ) dont they do like miles and miles of testing on the model to correct for errors? then how come they didnt find the brake issue to be the least? maybe this shud be a treat.

yes we all agree ;) now...
b4 a new model comes out ( armada ) dont they do like miles and miles of testing on the model to correct for errors? then how come they didnt find the brake issue to be the least? maybe this shud be a treat.
Not sure what you said, but I think you wanted to know why Nissan didn't find the brake issue prior to release of the vehicle. The answer is I don't know of any new vehicle that doesn't have some bugs first year. Some vehicles come with recycled parts from other vehicles. Brakes are often recycled. Ex would be the discs and drum setups of mustangs. They were around for 2 years in multiple cars. This is the first new full size truck for Nissan. They had to create all new parts, motor, frame, body, etc. and not just put a new body on an existing frame and drivetrain. Considering they started from scratch, I think they did a pretty good job. Also, they have been very responsive to the problems they missed and have fixed most of these, including now the brakes, in the '05 and fixed these issues in the vehicles already on the road. Many car companies don't fix the problems, they just replace again and again with the same flawed parts or say that's the way it is.

I could have gotten virtually the same vehicle in an '04 and saved a bundle but I didn't want to. I wanted the one with the issues resolved at the factory, not with trips to the dealer.
Moral of the story: don't buy an all new first year vehicle from anyone without expecting some early bugs. ;)

ok...fair enough...the ecu advances timing until knock is detected......so the opctane isnt giving it the hp..the ecu is just advancing timing and it is able to do this because the fuel detonates at a higher temp...so the advance in timing is giving you the hp, not the actual octane....because if actual octane gave you hp it would in any engine, which it wont in non variable timing engines....can we agree on that?
He found religion! I thought I was saying exactly what you just posted earlier on in the thread. I never said there was more hp from the octane, I said the ECU adjusted the timing from input from an electronic knock sensor, allowing the higher octane to get you more HP from allowing the timing to run at a more advanced setting. Maybe it was my fault for not explaining my points clearly enough.
:noworries :teeth:
BTW, keep up the good work serving your country for us! :goteam:

He found religion! I thought I was saying exactly what you just posted earlier on in the thread. I never said there was more hp from the octane, I said the ECU adjusted the timing from input from an electronic knock sensor, allowing the higher octane to get you more HP from allowing the timing to run at a more advanced setting. Maybe it was my fault for not explaining my points clearly enough.
:noworries :teeth:
BTW, keep up the good work serving your country for us! :goteam:


lol.....yeah....i guess we can read with a biased eye on some stuff...but i thought the arguement was octane made the power..not the adjustment of the ecu.....

This is getting way to semantical.
The issue was: Does higher octane fuel in the Armada get more HP.
Answer is yes. As long as you are comparing 87 to 91.

Time to move on. Let's kill this thread.... Where's that machine gun smilie when you need it???

This is getting way to semantical.
The issue was: Does higher octane fuel in the Armada get more HP.
Answer is yes. As long as you are comparing 87 to 91.

Time to move on. Let's kill this thread.... Where's that machine gun smilie when you need it???


we were arguing the reason if the answer was yes...there is a HUGE difference between obtaining HO from just octane as oppossed to the ECU adjusting....if it was really time to move on, you wouldnt have posted again

OK, guys. Nothing more to be gained here. Let's move on.