so who's next?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i remember colin powell at the un defending/justifying the right to attack iraq with their satallite imagery of the iraq's nuclear facilities and they did attack now iran is slamming in the face of international communities(esp USA) we are opening again our nuclear project and you don't need spies. i don't know what will be the USA next move. I think they say we are in bussiness again.



ISFAHAN, Iran (AP) — Iran removed the final seals from equipment at a uranium conversion plant as U.N. inspectors watched Wednesday, paving the way for Tehran to fully open the facility despite European and U.S. calls for it to maintain the suspension of its nuclear program. (Related video: Iran removes seals at plant)

Iran began work Monday at the Isfahan facility, but some key units at the plant had remained under IAEA seal until Wednesday.
By Vahid Salemi, AP

The move came as Europe and the United States were struggling to find leverage to stop Iran from forging ahead with its nuclear program, which Washington says secretly aims to develop nuclear weapons. Iran says its program is peaceful, intended only to produce electricity. (Related story: Bush suspicious of Iran's nuclear ambitions)

Board members of the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, canceled a session tentatively planned for Wednesday in Vienna, Austria, signaling how difficult it was for delegates to agree on how to rebuke Iran. (Related item: International Atomic Energy Agency)

The United States and some European countries had talked of referring Iran to the U.N. Security Council for possible economic sanctions — but that option was fading over concerns it could backfire by hardening Iran's position. Iran has already said it would rather endure sanctions than back down on a program it says is a matter of national pride.

President Bush said Tuesday he was "deeply suspicious" about Iran's intentions.

Iran began work Monday at its Isfahan Uranium Conversion Facility, 255 miles south of Tehran. But some key units at the plant had remained under IAEA seal since a November suspension in activity.

All the seals were removed Wednesday and the agency said it had a surveillance system in place at the facility to keep tabs on the work.

The head of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran, Gholamreza Aghazadeh, told state-run television earlier Monday that work would start at the units as soon as the seals were removed, but he didn't specify in his latest comments whether that had happened.

The reopening of the plant is part of a tough new stance Iran is taking over its nuclear program. It suspended all nuclear activities in November to avoid U.N. sanctions and as a gesture in negotiations with the Europeans, who have trying to persuade Iran to limit its nuclear program.

Over the weekend, Iran rejected European proposals offering economic incentives in return for abandoning its uranium processing facilities.

New hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called the offer "an insult," but he said Iran wanted to continue negotiations and would make its own proposals.

Iran has said it won't resume uranium enrichment — the most crucial part of its program — for the time being. Enrichment can produce either fuel for a nuclear power reactor or material for a nuclear bomb.

The Isfahan facility carries out an earlier stage of the process, converting raw uranium — or "yellowcake" — into uranium hexaflouride gas, UF-6, the feedstock for enrichment.

Before the November suspension, the Isfahan facility converted some 37 tons of yellowcake into UF-4, a preliminary stage. Experts say that amount could yield 200 pounds of weapons-grade uranium, enough to make five crude nuclear weapons.

The seals Wednesday were removed from the unit that converts UF-4 to UF-6, meaning it can now complete the conversion for the 37 tons, as well as convert more yellowcake from scratch.

The seals were voluntary, so IAEA inspectors had no choice but to let them be removed, though Iran allowed the installation of surveillance equipment to ensure no nuclear material is diverted.

Iran insists it has the right under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to develop the entire nuclear cycle — from uranium ore to fuel for a reactor. But Europe fears that will give it the ability to secretly produce material for weapons.

Europe and the United States were struggling to find a way to get Tehran to back down. Diplomats at the IAEA board of governors held one meeting Tuesday. But a Wednesday session was canceled.

"They need more time," IAEA spokesman Peter Rickwood said. Diplomats were expected to continue negotiations privately on a resolution urging Iran to suspend its latest nuclear activities.

Germany said the removal of the seals at Isfahan brought the standoff to a "critical phase of the process."

The German government "hopes Iran will still take the sensible path and look seriously and constructively at the offer from the (Europeans) and return to the so-called 'status quo ante," spokesman Bela Anda said.

France also urged Iran to again suspend the Isfahan plant. "This is necessary to restore the confidence of the international community and to allow for a resumption of negotiations," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Marie Masdupuy said.

The European proposal offered last week to Iran "remains on the table and we invite Iran to give itself time to study it seriously," Masdupuy added.

The European proposals offered a trade-off: Iran would forgo activities on the nuclear fuel cycle, including conversion and enrichment, and in return Europe would guarantee it a supply of fuel for its reactor program, technical help and economic incentives.





http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...n-nuclear_x.htm

so who's next?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i remember colin powell at the un defending/justifying the right to attack iraq with their satallite imagery of the iraq's nuclear facilities and they did attack now iran is slamming in the face of international communities(esp USA) we are opening again our nuclear project and you don't need spies. i don't know what will be the USA next move. I think they say we are in bussiness again.





I don't know what the plan is, but we are obviously not spending enough on schools, as evidenced by the sentences above.

Bush: 'All options are on the table' regarding Iran's nuclear aspirations


that's the plan...
Bush: ''All options are on the table' regarding Iran's nuclear aspirations"

means only one thing.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-13-bush-iran-nuclear_x.htm

Bush: 'All options are on the table' regarding Iran's nuclear aspirations
JERUSALEM (AP) — In a stern warning to Iran, President Bush said "all options are on the table" if the Iranians refuse to comply with international demands to halt their nuclear program, pointedly noting he has already used force to protect U.S. security.

In an interview, Bush said the United States and Israel "are united in our objective to make sure that Iran does not have a weapon."
Mandel Ngan, AFP/Getty Images

Bush's statement during an interview on Israeli TV late Friday was unusually harsh. He previously said diplomacy should be used to persuade Iran to suspend its nuclear program and if that failed then the U.N. Security Council should impose sanctions.

The U.S. government and others fear Iran's nuclear work is secretly designed to produce nuclear weapons. Iran's leaders deny that, saying it is only for the generation of electricity.

In the interview, Bush said the United States and Israel "are united in our objective to make sure that Iran does not have a weapon."

But, he said, if diplomacy fails "all options are on the table."

"The use of force is the last option for any president. You know, we've used force in the recent past to secure our country," he said.

Iran's government resumed uranium conversion at its nuclear facility in Isfahan this past week. The U.N. nuclear watchdog agency, the International Atomic Energy Agency, responded by issuing a warning to Iran on Thursday that expressed "serious concern" about Iran's intentions.

Bush welcomed the warning, which signaled that the West wanted to give diplomacy time to ease the standoff.

In Vienna, Austria, where the IAEA is based, diplomats said Iran faced a Sept. 3 deadline to stop uranium conversion or face possible referral to the Security Council, which has the power to impose crippling sanctions. The diplomats spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the IAEA board's proceedings.

Iran, which insists its nuclear program is peaceful, responded with indignation to the IAEA warning.

whatchu talkin about willis?

WOW!

:hmm: :comphead: :comp26: :huh:

Ok, where did my post go? Are we not allowed to speak poorly of other people on here? If thats the case I'm out of here.

Of course you can speak your mind. Personal insults are not going to be allowed here, however.

Let's keep it friendly y'all.

Are we not allowed to speak poorly of other people on here? If thats the case I'm out of here.

Like I said go ahead and state your different opinion without name calling. Your post was deleted because it did neither of these. If you can't do it then you are free to leave.

While I don't buy the slant on the above politics, I choose to ignore it rather than spend the effort finding rebuttals to post.

The site is starting to take on the feel of a junior high chat room. Lets keep if fun and full of useful info.

I don't really agree with the censorship, but I'm not paying for this site and you don't have to let us be here so your party your rules. I just think that having a post disappear into thin air with no notice is kind of inappropriate.

I don't really agree with the censorship, but I'm not paying for this site and you don't have to let us be here so your party your rules. I just think that having a post disappear into thin air with no notice is kind of inappropriate.
I didn't see your earlier post, but the answer is no, you can't personlly slam someone else. You can criticize things, etc. but not people.
That said to get back on topic, I don't think anything but diplomacy happens until:
1. Europe buys in and we attack . They have more chance to do this vs. what they did Iraq because their leaders don't have sweet deals set up with Iran to personally benefit like they did with Iraq.
2. Israel gets fed up and bombs them, again. They did this 20 years ago and no one stopped them. Many thought this was the US acting without a way to be blamed. Why not now?
3. Iran is overthrown from within. People hate the Mullahs and Democracy is trying to come back to this traditionally Democratic country.
4. They are no the verge of completing or complete a weapon. At this point, the gloves come off and I don't think anyone would blame anyone at that point.

Iran has said that it woudn't take free energy to give up their "Nuclear Energy" program which they say they need. Unlike North Korea, this is a complete sham as Iran is one of the most oil rich countries and could easily create their power needs using oil instead of nuke. They know they are fooling no one and seem to be taking the attitude that it is a race to finish before there is enough support to stop them. We'll see who wins that race. Lybia put their money on us. ;)

Personal "slams" aside, that doesn't change my original question of why AK doesn't ever post anything but links and quotes. Come with some ideas of your own at least once in awhile. As for the Middle East and Iran in particular, Who cares? People are missing the bigger picture and that is China. To compare the potential threat posed by the two is to compare a gnat to an elephant. People need to wake up and start worrying about real threats not the same nonsense thats been going on for thousands of years in the Middle East.

How did China pop up here? Are we talking about economic threat. Certainly is not military.
Personal "slams" aside, that doesn't change my original question of why AK doesn't ever post anything but links and quotes. Come with some ideas of your own at least once in awhile. As for the Middle East and Iran in particular, Who cares? People are missing the bigger picture and that is China. To compare the potential threat posed by the two is to compare a gnat to an elephant. People need to wake up and start worrying about real threats not the same nonsense thats been going on for thousands of years in the Middle East.

china is considered as a strong country with nuclear bombs lately, and while usa keeps its troops in iraq, u guys will have to spend close to 100 bucks at the gas station for a fill up in about 1 year period :D

china is considered as a strong country with nuclear bombs lately, and while usa keeps its troops in iraq, u guys will have to spend close to 100 bucks at the gas station for a fill up in about 1 year period :D

I hear ya on the 100 buck fillup. I have to run 2 transactions though because on the credit card, Unocal sets limit at $50. So I have to go through the card swipping thing twice to fill up. $85 each fillup.
My friend with his Hybrid was giving me sh!t about my mpg until he went to get his Toyota Prius serviced. He said it was like servicing 2 motors and ran him $900 for a 30k service. So much for his gas savings....

So what does the troops in Iraq have to do with expensive gas. I thought the the culprits are all the gas companies here reporting all time record high profits.

You don't think china is a military threat? You need to think some more.

You guys are scaring me! :eek:
I'm worried about China too....that leader is pretty crazy too. it is China that has the dictator, communist leader, right? THEY ARE SCARY PEOPLE!

I hear ya on the 100 buck fillup. I have to run 2 transactions though because on the credit card, Unocal sets limit at $50. So I have to go through the card swipping thing twice to fill up. $85 each fillup.
My friend with his Hybrid was giving me sh!t about my mpg until he went to get his Toyota Prius serviced. He said it was like servicing 2 motors and ran him $900 for a 30k service. So much for his gas savings....

So what does the troops in Iraq have to do with expensive gas. I thought the the culprits are all the gas companies here reporting all time record high profits.

re: Hybrid - I would love to have one for commuting and highway trips. Went from Bako to San Berdoo and back this weekend with the wife & kids: Cost me $50 (about 2/3 tank) because I took my 2000 Camry. Would have been about $75 or 80 if I had driven the (oh so much smoother) 'Mada.

About gas prices: oil production in the US has been falling for many years now. Consumption has been rising. Difference is made up by shipments from overseas, especially the Mideast. Pacific Rim production is going up and exploration is strong. Unocal has LOTS of new production in Thailand, Indonesia, etc. - why do you think Chevron buying them was such a political big deal? We are very dependent on foreign sources - especially Mideast, in the Iraq region. It IS a matter of national security, at least for this decade.

Also: When was the last refinery built in the US? I don't remember, either, because it was 25 to 30 years ago. Existing refineries have been upgrading over and over to make more (and more complicated) gasoline from the same space and equipment. We are buying more gasoline from overseas, too. THis is an issue that we could do something about but we won't. Environmental regulations, etc. keep the oil companies from building. So they get high profits on the restricted supply, and they don't have to take the risk that they will be turned down at permitting time, or forced to do an enormous raft of really stupid things to comply with the EPA and localities' wish lists.

I found this today and thought it relavent to this discussion. Long, but worth it IMO.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/7539869?rnd=1124128067790&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1040

There are a few, if any good points in that article. However they are lost in the brainless , left rhetoric.

You know, if you would have asked me a year ago about my political leanings, I would have definitely sided "republican".

But no way can I sit back and watch the clowns in congress (democrat and republican) pass these pork laden bills, give away the country, and then out of the other side of their mouths tell us that "we're for the little guy" or whatever.

Next election I'm voting libertarian- if for no other reason that to satisfy my need to try to be consistent. Both the democrats and republicans are full of it in my opinion, and I hope that all of the people that have found themselves "hardcore republican" over the past 10-15 years would do some reading (as I have) and realize what's really going on. In my experience if you read a lot it becomes easy to recognize bias on both sides, but there is still lots of info to be gleened between the lines.

I agree the Rolling Stone article was seething with some Bush-hatred, but I've read just as inflammatory things from the right as well. If only we had a party out there that was for small government and following the constitution to the letter.

You know, if you would have asked me a year ago about my political leanings, I would have definitely sided "republican".

But no way can I sit back and watch the clowns in congress (democrat and republican) pass these pork laden bills, give away the country, and then out of the other side of their mouths tell us that "we're for the little guy" or whatever.

Next election I'm voting libertarian- if for no other reason that to satisfy my need to try to be consistent. Both the democrats and republicans are full of it in my opinion, and I hope that all of the people that have found themselves "hardcore republican" over the past 10-15 years would do some reading (as I have) and realize what's really going on. In my experience if you read a lot it becomes easy to recognize bias on both sides, but there is still lots of info to be gleened between the lines.

I agree the Rolling Stone article was seething with some Bush-hatred, but I've read just as inflammatory things from the right as well. If only we had a party out there that was for small government and following the constitution to the letter.
I agree they are all full of it. However, from an economic standpoint, gas prices are because of China sucking the excess of the world dry. The result is a gas system that is hypersensitive to everything. China is now the #2 importer of oil. They were a net exporter a decade ago.This is driving the prices at the pumps more than everything else combined. It would be this way regardless of who was elected.

As for Iraq, I didn't need WMD for me to go. I have been saying we should have been there since Saddam started giving us the finger in '94 by not honoring his cease fire agreement from Gulf one. By not doing this, he killed about an extra 300,000 Iraqis and raped and tortured countless more before he was toppled. The end result will be a pro western democratic Islamic state in the center of the middle east. Lybia has come clean as a result, Syria is out of Lebanon which is shaping up, and the Palestinians are playing ball now. Good stuff.

As for "our boys are dying", its BS. Same as "its another Vietnam." We lost close to 2000 men there. I salute and morn each one. But we lost 58,000 and had 550,000 wounded in vietnam and if you look at real losses, look at big wars. We lost millions in WWII for example. Russia lost the most loosing 20 million. 2,000 over 3 years isn't much higher than the rate people die in training accidents in peace time. Another Vietnam is just a way to sensationalize the war. I think all it does is trivialize the sacrifice of the Vietnam vets. And once we are out, it will all be worth it.

However, we do have to realize that the longer it takes, the more energy the Islamic extremists get. We need to finish fast, but without a time table. This will minimize the postive force for the enemy and not give them a date to use to wait us out. We need to get Bin Laden. We need to get him and Saddam on trial infront of the world, and we need to deal with Iran.

Tall order, but this is where we are. The opposite would be:
Get out of Iraq now.... Which leads to it becoming Iran 2.
Dragging it out, which drags out world opinion against us.
Ignoring Iran, which really has WMD, until they nuke a city.

The sad fact is these are people that can't be bargained with, can't be handled with diplomacy or reason, and want to kill us. The only solution is to kill them or let them kill us.

Do I like everything the right is doing? No. Hate spending, bigger gov., etc.
Do I like anything the left is suggesting? Maybe tougher borders, but that's about it. I hate taxes, reverse discrimiation (affirmative action or buying minority votes), killing Christmas (I'm traditional, not religious) and "welfare" programs. And don't expect France to do anything for us. They have hated us since WW1 when we wouldn't let their generals command our troops.

Maybe I will go with you on Libertarian as long as they don't have problems with us profiling terrorists instead of stupidly doing random checks on grandmas. :rolleyes:

Flame away. ;)

You're halfway there with China. The fact that there are oil reserves in Alaska larger than those anywhere else in the world, but are untapped also help keep prices up.

I'll go with you on most of your points Triple. At least GWB is actually doing something, and he seems to mean what he says.

I guess the thing I'd like to see is real, common sense solutions and not politics. Of course, that will never happen. It is nice to dream about a system where the policiticians focus on what's best for the U.S. all around. I say limit them all to one or maybe two terms max, and that's it.

As for China, I guess it remains to be seen. The media has a tendency to scare monger, that's why I get my news online. Thank God for the internet- where we can read news from multiple sources to shake out what's really going on.

I've found myself reading left leaning blogs as well as the usual right leaning blogs also lately- just to get some balance. A lot of the lefties are over the top, but some actually make some sense.

Left, Right, who cares, I'm scared of China for real reasons that I've seen with my own eyes.

You're halfway there with China. The fact that there are oil reserves in Alaska larger than those anywhere else in the world, but are untapped also help keep prices up.
This is true. Alaska ANWR has enough oil to replace what we get from Saudi for the next 30 years. Might be worth looking at, especially since 99.2% of the region would be untouched if we decide to go get the oil. ;)

Left, Right, who cares, I'm scared of China for real reasons that I've seen with my own eyes.

I'm still totally not clear on why China has been brought up? Because they use a lot of gas? BFD

I'm more worried about the middle east getting nuclear bombs or biological stuff.

What an I missing?

That the middle east poses almost no threat in comparison to china. Think of it this way, the middle east is like the midget at your door with a small caliber handgun, while china is your neighbor who has a huge arsenal and is working on a nuclear device and you don't know if your dog barking in the middle of the day is enough to set him off.

I think the arguement is China is affecting the economy more than terrorism, which affects everyone. China is also capable from a military standpoint and we may need to address that sometime in the future over Taiwan, but until then, I they have been more on our side helping control North Korea. ;) :goteam:

I hear ya on the 100 buck fillup.
So what does the troops in Iraq have to do with expensive gas. I thought the the culprits are all the gas companies here reporting all time record high profits.
i mean while usa keeps tanks and all that kinda of stuff over there burning gas like water then u shoud be prepared to spend some extra bucks for u mada. there is an incredible high demand for oil in the usa, and last i heard oil barrels were priced at over $66 each one.

All I can say is:
U S A, U S A, U S A, U S A, U S A, U S A, U S A, U S A, U S A

I don't even have to read any of this to say
the war IS a lie
our troops brothers, sisters, cousins, friends) are dieing for corporate gain
china is an economic threat before they are a military threat. look at everything you buy, made in china. support of country buy American( LOL I said it on a import website). I buy American (GM)
America was built on unions, unions is what made us strong. American policies need to focus on healthcare and education.
The mainstream media is lying to us
yes this is really similar to what Hitler did.
democracy, freedom, and liberty are dieing because of greed, and basiclly these "elected" figures, and a magority of Americans can't accept responsibility.
Don't get me started on this false religious movement that we see.

I've got an old tin foil hat that I'll mail you for free if you send me your address.

:)

But seriously, lighten up. Think of how many human beings would have to all agree to make something like your scenario happen for real!

Where are armadas made again...not japan

I don't even have to read any of this to say
the war IS a lie
our troops brothers, sisters, cousins, friends) are dieing for corporate gain
china is an economic threat before they are a military threat. look at everything you buy, made in china. support of country buy American( LOL I said it on a import website). I buy American (GM)
America was built on unions, unions is what made us strong. American policies need to focus on healthcare and education.
The mainstream media is lying to us
yes this is really similar to what Hitler did.
democracy, freedom, and liberty are dieing because of greed, and basiclly these "elected" figures, and a magority of Americans can't accept responsibility.
Don't get me started on this false religious movement that we see.
Let's focus on education? It's "dying" and "majority"
And Armada's and Titans are built in the U.S.A

its also:
our troops-brothers, sisters, cousins, friends
not
our troops brothers, sisters, cousins friends

unions are what made us strong
not
unions is what made us strong

basically
not
basiclly

majority
not magority
yeah, maybe we should focus on edumacation more

AWE.......come on guys.....don't be mean! That's wasn't nice! :(

:offtopic:

thanks for proving my point, as a california raised child forced through a bull**** school system that really didn't teach me ****, and you know whats really funny, your tax dollars paid for my "first class" education, as you can tell by my spelling skills and use of grammer. which I got to admit is poor, but on the other hand is actually pretty good considering that while growing up my mother was learning english I ended up learning spanglish and the cali school system with it's oversized classes just wanted to push me through the system. not to mention that the alcohol and trying to type with my left hand while my right hand holds my 5 month old doesn't help. so andy and ftnssn way to attack the person instead of the issue. It's a typical righty technique when they have nothing to say in the debate. :ugogirl:
I forgot that nissan was an american company sorry

So what does the troops in Iraq have to do with expensive gas. I thought the the culprits are all the gas companies here reporting all time record high profits.
Neither is the culprit. China is the largest. Tank/military gas usage has no impact on prices and is statistically insignificant.

Oil companies are making record profits, true. But that's because they are selling to people willing to pay the higher price. That's capitalism. The reason they are able to is there isn't enough supply. If there was a surplus, an oil company could charge $62 instead of $66 a barrel and everyone would buy from them and they would clean up. Without the surplus, the price goes up. China is the reason there is no surplus. There isn't enough refinery capacity to meet the added demand China put on the system. Until new capacity comes on line, which takes years to build at great expense and is a big bet for an oil company to make, or until world demand drops, it will continue to rise. Don't blame the oil companies. Sure they are profiting, but again, they are supposed too. ;)

w
Why don't we call this debate a draw and move on? No one is going change the opinions of anyone else.
The horse is dead....

thanks for proving my point, as a california raised child forced through a bull**** school system that really didn't teach me ****, and you know whats really funny, your tax dollars paid for my "first class" education, as you can tell by my spelling skills and use of grammer. which I got to admit is poor, but on the other hand is actually pretty good considering that while growing up my mother was learning english I ended up learning spanglish and the cali school system with it's oversized classes just wanted to push me through the system. not to mention that the alcohol and trying to type with my left hand while my right hand holds my 5 month old doesn't help. so andy and ftnssn way to attack the person instead of the issue. It's a typical righty technique when they have nothing to say in the debate. :ugogirl:
I forgot that nissan was an american company sorry

What debate, you raised a couple of points that you probably heard Al Franken say on Air America. And as the person who corrected most of your mistakes I also happen to be a product of the CA public school system. It must have just been my natural intelligence that gave me the ability to spell and use proper grammar. :urock:

I don't even have to read any of this to say
the war IS a lie
No. No lie was told. We went to war on the best information available. Every intel org worldwide(US, Brit, China, French, German, Israel, and even captured Iraqi generals) said he had WMD. He got them from us when he was an allie against Iran. He used them in '89 on the Kurds. The blame for poor intel rests in the fact that the Dems dismantled the CIA systematically during the 90s saying satellites could replace ground personnel. :rolleyes:
our troops brothers, sisters, cousins, friends) are dieing for corporate gain
Which corporations are profiting as a result? None affiliated with the descision makers. EX. Haliburton has no ties to Chenney any more and Chenney will get no more or less from them regardless of if the war happened or not. He receives a pension that was in place long before the 2000 election. Oil prices are rising due to supply shortages, not war activity. China is forcing the rise with higher than expected demand. You know, supply demand =capitalism?
china is an economic threat before they are a military threat. look at everything you buy, made in china.
True. 1st good point. ;)
support of country buy American( LOL I said it on a import website). I buy American (GM)
Bad. Buying blindly because its USA enables producers to make inferior products longer, which in turn hurts us in the long run. Buy buying the best made, it forces a producer to improve their product to stay competitive. I will buy US, but only if all other things are equal. [/QUOTE]
America was built on unions, unions is what made us strong. US was built by people, some union, some not. Unions were a good idea before there was government regulation that gave us minimum wages, child labor laws, etc. Now they are legalized extortion of corporations. Without unions, workers do just as well if not better. Walmart is a great example. Unions put a high amount of cost into a product that doesn't need to be there. The average consumer, including blue collar people, pay this cost. The US would be much better off without them but they are so ingrained politically that they can't be killed.

American policies need to focus on healthcare and education. True. Funding vouchers and privatizing schools is the best way. For 1/3 of the cost, students of private schools outscore public students. We should privatize the system and set up a testing system to ensure students are being educated to set standards. This would create jobs, lower taxes and cost of schooling dramatically, and increase the education of our children.
The mainstream media is lying to us
Yes, the vast majority of media outlets have a liberal agenda.
yes this is really similar to what Hitler did.
No, Nazi media was state controlled and not free as the US system was. If it was like Nazi Germany, the war would be bloodless, full of glory, and reporting controlled. No AbuGraib, no Gitmo, no bombings, etc. reported.
democracy, freedom, and liberty are dieing because of greed, and basiclly these "elected" figures, and a magority of Americans can't accept responsibility.
Not sure how the current admin is "greedy" when none of them is profiting. Not sure how a majority of the US can't accept responsibiltiy. Responsibilty for what? Electing Bush? The war? You didn't specify but I believe you were alluding to these points which I believe I've responded too.
Don't get me started on this false religious movement that we see.
What false religious movement? I'm 100% unreligious. I don't like religion in my life or foisted upon me. However, I do like Christmas and other religious related traditions. I don't feel they are promoting a religion, I feel they are a part of our culture and a positive influnece and would not like to see them removed. I also feel that people have the right to be religious in any way they want in the US but the US is a society built upon a Christian model. Love thy neighbor, thou shall not kill, etc. so I don't see why Religion should be purged from society and the government.

BTW, there is no seperation of church and state clause within the constitution. Any rulings on this are truly legislating from the bench. ;)

I like this debate. :D

thanks for proving my point, as a california raised child forced through a bull**** school system that really didn't teach me ****, and you know whats really funny, your tax dollars paid for my "first class" education, as you can tell by my spelling skills and use of grammer. which I got to admit is poor, but on the other hand is actually pretty good considering that while growing up my mother was learning english I ended up learning spanglish and the cali school system with it's oversized classes just wanted to push me through the system.

Exactly my point. Unions and government run the schools. Both are Democrat/Liberal institutions. Republicans would privatize the schools and limit unions, or at least impose teacher standards, allowing you to be properly educated.
not to mention that the alcohol and trying to type with my left hand while my right hand holds my 5 month old doesn't help.
Drinking while you care for an infant. That's a good excuse for poor grammer. :rolleyes: (I guess this was a minor attack so I apologize but I am very careful and cautious of children. I think the first time I saw my dad have a drink, I was 15. He drank, but not around the kids or to any excess.)
so andy and ftnssn way to attack the person instead of the issue. It's a typical righty technique when they have nothing to say in the debate. :ugogirl:
I forgot that nissan was an american company sorry
I attacked the issue and did not attack you so please don't feel that I did. I hope that some of my comments have enlightened you past the opinions given to you by your public educators that you have been so critical of. Once you get the whole story and not the snippits, it starts to clear up a lot. ;)

Disclaimer: the follow post may contain errors in grammer and punctuation. The author of this post reserves the right to mispell any words or use them out of context, and sometimes will mistype due to poor lighting conditions


w
Why don't we call this debate a draw and move on? No one is going change the opinions of anyone else.
The horse is dead....

ya you're right , but I still stand behind my first post and will retract the buy american line. That was just rant that got mixed in with the post.(most likely from hearing my aunt always tell me that since I can remember)

The War IS a lie
we know there they are(wmd's)the WMD's are north of bagdad, south of bagdad, east of bagdad, west of bagdad.
what about the one were Saddam was behind 9/11 (takes sip of liquior for the victims of that horrible day, still hurts to think about it)


our troops brothers, sisters, cousins, friends) are dieing for corporate gain

look you cant tell me that they are not connected to the oil companies. I might not be able to spell or write correctly but I'm not stupid (punctuation purposly left out and yes I know I misspelled purposely) :excellent

America was built on unions, unions is what made us strong. Wal-mart is the perfect example of corporate greed. would you want to work there? do you get benefits where you work? I don't(I.C.) and it sucks

am I done yet? :eek:

china is an economic threat before they are a military threat. look at everything you buy, made in china.

American policies need to focus on healthcare and education.


The mainstream media is lying to us
liberal agenda, just like they want you to think, can you fetch too?

yes this is really similar to what Hitler did.

democracy, freedom, and liberty are dieing because of greed, and basiclly these "elected" figures, and a magority(still misspelled) of Americans can't accept responsibility.

no not for voting for Bush or the war. Iwas for the war at first until I saw the lies being exposed, backpeddling on their words, the body language they use when they talk. I might not be able to spell but I'll wavehttp://www.60degreev6.com/modules/PNphpBB2/files/animation4.gif when you're lying

Don't get me started on this false religious movement that we see.
I saw a bumper sticker that read "Believe in Jesus or be left" or something stupid like that and thats the messages thats being spread through some churches. Like I'm some anti-christ because I vote democrat.

and for the other issues I didn't address :nana:

Exactly my point. Unions and government run the schools. Both are Democrat/Liberal institutions. Republicans would privatize the schools and limit unions, or at least impose teacher standards, allowing you to be properly educated.


so the poor can't get any education. public school systems are fine when they are full funded.

Drinking while you care for an infant. That's a good excuse for poor grammer. :rolleyes: (I guess this was a minor attack so I apologize but I am very careful and cautious of children. I think the first time I saw my dad have a drink, I was 15. He drank, but not around the kids or to any excess.)


well, lucky you Cupcake.http://www.60degreev6.com/modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/whoopdeedo.gif

I figured since this is the off topic thread, anything goes.... :D

But Tripleblack, so I follow what you're saying about China using a A LOT of gas, but how does that make them the bad guy?
We Americans probably drink too much beer, but then if prices go up and its profitable, more beer enters the market and we get Stroh's for $1.99/12 pack.

Or worse, Boones Farm. Remember that stuff?

The War IS a lie
we know there they are(wmd's)the WMD's are north of bagdad, south of bagdad, east of bagdad, west of bagdad.
The definition of lie states you are knowingly providing false information. This wasnt' the case. The WMD comment was an error based on incorrect information. It also was not the only reason we went to war but one of dozens, all of which have proven true, and any of which would have justified going.

what about the one were Saddam was behind 9/11 (takes sip of liquior for the victims of that horrible day, still hurts to think about it)
Never said. That is a fabrication of the left created in an attempt to discredit the current administration for electoral purposes.

our troops brothers, sisters, cousins, friends) are dieing for corporate gain

look you cant tell me that they are not connected to the oil companies. I might not be able to spell or write correctly but I'm not stupid (punctuation purposly left out and yes I know I misspelled purposely) :excellent
And? The war is not profiting oil companies. The increased demand from china is raising prices and profits. Would have happened regardess of who was in power. The only profit from the war they may be making is in rebuilding the country's infrastructure. If the war wouldn't have happened, this wouldn't have either, and France and Germany would be doing it instead.

America was built on unions, unions is what made us strong. Wal-mart is the perfect example of corporate greed. would you want to work there? do you get benefits where you work? I don't(I.C.) and it sucks
Yes, I get benefits because I don't work for a union controlled company. If there was one, we wouldn't be able to afford benefits. They extra money used for benefits would be filling the mob's pockets instead.
am I done yet? :eek:

china is an economic threat before they are a military threat. look at everything you buy, made in china.
Agreed as stated earier.

American policies need to focus on healthcare and education.
No and Yes.
Healthcare is high because of lawsuits and drug costs. Lawsuits are high and should be curtailed. The current admin. tried to do this but was blocked by dems. In Florida, a state that voted repub. we passed limiting lawyer profits on suits on our ballot. Kill frivilous law suits, and you lower costs dramatically.

Drug costs are high because they use the money for research. Without the extra cost, there are no new drugs. The rest of the world doesn't have high drug costs, but also doesn't develop any new drugs. Wonder why....

If we limit advertising of new drugs like all these commercials, then the makers would lower their prices and/or put more into research. Both would be good.

So in conclusion, kill frivilous lawsuits and lower advertising and you will fix the majority of health care costs.

As for education, I covered it earlier. Privatize, kill teachers unions, tenure, and make teachers accountable for hitting certain standards, give bonuses to good teachers, and it will thrive. Crack down on college book companies that introduce a new edition each year of a book like latin so you can buy used books, regulate college costs to forcing colleges to raise tuition only as fast as inflation, not 3 times faster as they have for decades, and this will lower costs there.


The mainstream media is lying to us
liberal agenda, just like they want you to think, can you fetch too?
When I see CNN reporting on the elections, and Woodriff crying and gasping as she announces results against Kerry, and cheering and smiling when Kerry gets a vote, when I see 50 front page stories on how we got a couple terrorists who fired on Americans naked, and almost none on beheading of civilian workers by terrorists, when I hear the bombers in England being called freedom fighters and not terrorists, I think there may be a slant.

yes this is really similar to what Hitler did.
No, Hitler controlled the media to such an extent that the German public didn't know there was a holocost. If Bush had any control, there wouldn't be any dead in Iraq and they would have pictures of them cheering in the streets and CNN and Michael Moore would be executed. :clueless:

democracy, freedom, and liberty are dieing because of greed, and basiclly these "elected" figures, and a magority(still misspelled) of Americans can't accept responsibility.
Greed is why we have democracy and liberty. The ability to better yourself. Its a capitalistic society that gives you this. Without that your have socialism and communism, you know, that Hitler Stalin stuff?

no not for voting for Bush or the war. Iwas for the war at first until I saw the lies being exposed, backpeddling on their words, the body language they use when they talk. I might not be able to spell but I'll wavehttp://www.60degreev6.com/modules/PNphpBB2/files/animation4.gif when you're lying
Its not your fault. If you are continually exposed to incorrect info, you begin to believe. Its like Stockholm syndrome. If everyone around you says black is white, eventually you believe.

Don't get me started on this false religious movement that we see.
I saw a bumper sticker that read "Believe in Jesus or be left" or something stupid like that and thats the messages thats being spread through some churches. Like I'm some anti-christ because I vote democrat.
That's just about as bad as the fanatical stuff from the left. I don't like it either.

and for the other issues I didn't address :nana:
Whatever.

so the poor can't get any education. public school systems are fine when they are full funded.



well, lucky you Cupcake.http://www.60degreev6.com/modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/whoopdeedo.gif
No, the public system money should be paid to corporations to teach everyone.
Ex: Right now, taxpayers pay $10k a kid to the public school system. 4 of 5 kids go to it and score lower than the 1 of 5 who goes to the private school that costs $5k per kid. Why not give the taxpayer money of $5k per kid to the private school and all 5 of 5 kids go for free.

We save $5k per kid, lowering our property taxes, and kids get a real education. :amazing:

This was introduced as the voucher system but dems voted it down. :whip:

Giving more money to the public system has never shown an increase in grades because bad teachers are protected by unions and tenure and public systems overpay for everything vs. private systems.

An example of education brainwashing in public schools to further the point.
My 13 year old nephew, who gets good grades and has the honors classes, didn't know what auchwitz was, didn't have any idea how many people died in the holocost or WW2, didn't know how many causalties in Vietnam, but was taught how to say hello and goodbye in Muslim. :mad: :crikey:
He also knew that each one of his 8 teachers was voting for Kerry. I can't remember a single teacher letting me or anyone know who they were voting for when I was growing up. I thought that was a no-no. :confused:

Great public school system we have. Thank you teacher's union and tenure for keeping these and other teachers like Ward Churchill around. :rolleyes:

I figured since this is the off topic thread, anything goes.... :D

But Tripleblack, so I follow what you're saying about China using a A LOT of gas, but how does that make them the bad guy?
We Americans probably drink too much beer, but then if prices go up and its profitable, more beer enters the market and we get Stroh's for $1.99/12 pack.

Or worse, Boones Farm. Remember that stuff?
It doesn't. They aren't bad. They are the cause of higher gas prices, but we use far more than they do so to them we are the ones responsible for their higher gas prices. Bottomline, there is no bad guy except for the ones who incorrectly predicted the sharp increase in world demand on gas. ;)

No, the public system money should be paid to corporations to teach everyone.
Ex: Right now, taxpayers pay $10k a kid to the public school system. 4 of 5 kids go to it and score lower than the 1 of 5 who goes to the private school that costs $5k per kid. Why not give the taxpayer money of $5k per kid to the private school and all 5 of 5 kids go for free.

We save $5k per kid, lowering our property taxes, and kids get a real education. :amazing:

This was introduced as the voucher system but dems voted it down. :whip:

Giving more money to the public system has never shown an increase in grades because bad teachers are protected by unions and tenure and public systems overpay for everything vs. private systems.

except for the kids who are in public schools who's parent don't pay property taxes, who can't come up with the extra money to put their child in private school. what about them? Look I am a homeowner and I pay property taxes and it doesn't bother me to pay a little extra to help the needy. I think Jesus taught me that one.

As for the high drug prices you might want to ask the pharmaceutical companies that are filling GOP pockets. now with the feds cracking down on the medicinal marijuanna (which we voted for, government of the people, for the people, by the people). Now where will these patient go to get relief?? (Pharmacy)

got to go for now

except for the kids who are in public schools who's parent don't pay property taxes, who can't come up with the extra money to put their child in private school. what about them? Look I am a homeowner and I pay property taxes and it doesn't bother me to pay a little extra to help the needy. I think Jesus taught me that one.

As for the high drug prices you might want to ask the pharmaceutical companies that are filling GOP pockets. now with the feds cracking down on the medicinal marijuanna (which we voted for, government of the people, for the people, by the people). Now where will these patient go to get relief?? (Pharmacy)

got to go for now
ALL KIDS WOULD GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOL FOR FREE JUST LIKE THEY CAN GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL FOR FREE. :duh:
This is what I have been saying.

NO public school. Kill it. Doesn't exist. Private school paid for with the money that currently goes to fund public school. EVERYONE GOES FOR FREE. Better education and cheaper. I'm not talking about religious or elite private schools, I'm talking about school systems that have done this already all over the US. The public education is run buy a private corporation instead of the township or state running it, that's all. The governement can't run anything efficiently. They throw money at things because they don't care about the bottomline. A corporation cares if they get something for their dollar and as a result is much more efficient with their spending, resulting in a better education for less. ;)

As for medical marijuana, 99% of the people using this is bogus. San Fran now has pot shops everywhere. Doctors take a payoff of $500 or so and write a perscription. Then people can smoke legally. Turns out crime, drug addiction, etc. is skyrocketing as a result. Bad move. People who are legitimately using medical mary jane aren't doing so because they can't afford anything else, they are doing it because they feel it works the best. They should be able to do it but with a permit issued from a judge and panel of Drs. not a quack who wants to make a buck. :rolleyes:

California has very high health care costs over other states. It is something like 2 to 1. The reason is there are too many law suit judgements by liberal courts and the health system is being killed by illegal aliens.
What they should do is kick the illegal aliens out.
They are ILLEGAL! Drivers licenses for them is criminal. By definition, they are all criminals. They should grab them when they show up at DMV and jail or deport them, not give licenses. Same at hospitals. Not a citizen or hear legally should equal=no rights. Put up an electric fence, guards with high powered rifles and scopes with shoot to kill orders, and watch your health care costs drop.

As for illegals, set up a program with work visas, make them get checked before they come across. Make them legal migrant workers. If you get caught here without a visa, bar them from getting a visa for 5 years. Make them cross the border at border check points.

This would still allow them to come to work, would keep out criminals/terrorists/drug dealers, and would stop people from dying in the desert or in the back of a truck. We would get the workers we need, and they would get the work they need.

Require newborns to be born from parents who are here legally to get citizenship. If someone sneaks across the border to have a baby, no citizenship. Deport.

The problem is easy to fix, but politically hard to accomplish. ;)

I think the weird thing about this whole thread is that the person that started hasn't contributed to it.

YEAH, you are SO RIGHT....LOL! He likes to sit back and watch his topics BLOW UP in discussion! You are a TRICKY ONE AK47! That's a SCARY NAME....like the machine gun right?

How come you don't talk to any one? Your makin me Ascared!
:eek:
:191: lol!

reverse discrimiation (affirmative action)

You know what 3black, I respect your opinion, but ALL affirmative action programs are not bad. If done correctly (and I say that knowing they are not all done correctly) it is not reverse discrimination, it is simply getting a fair shake in a world full of inequality. If you dig down into it, minorities are only asking for equal consideration. If you have 1000 applicants in a college and 950 of the applicants are white and only 200 are getting selected, what are the chances that the other 50 applicants will get accepted, slim just because of the statistics. For the record I do not believe in quotas (a required amount of acceptance of any particular ethnicity). If the minority is not fully and equally qualified then they should not get in. There should be no relaxed standards, this only sets them up for failure. If they qualify then the minority should be equally represented according to demographics. That's it. Not trying to bump a smarter caucasian for a not so smart minority. Just want equal opportunity. I guess you'll really never know until you've been a minority.

You know what 3black, I respect your opinion, but ALL affirmative action programs are not bad. If done correctly (and I say that knowing they are not all done correctly) it is not reverse discrimination, it is simply getting a fair shake in a world full of inequality. If you dig down into it, minorities are only asking for equal consideration. If you have 1000 applicants in a college and 950 of the applicants are white and only 200 are getting selected, what are the chances that the other 50 applicants will get accepted, slim just because of the statistics. For the record I do not believe in quotas (a required amount of acceptance of any particular ethnicity). If the minority is not fully and equally qualified then they should not get in. There should be no relaxed standards, this only sets them up for failure. If they qualify then the minority should be equally represented according to demographics. That's it. Not trying to bump a smarter caucasian for a not so smart minority. Just want equal opportunity. I guess you'll really never know until you've been a minority.
For me, someone should get ahead, whatever, due to merrit, not race or creed. My fiance is of Asian Indian decent. Not a prejudice bone in my body. But I don't find it fair if someone is passed over for someone less qualified because they are of a specific race or gender, etc.
EX. One example really bugged me. I had a buddy who took the state trooper exam in NJ and didn't get in. He got a 96 of 100. If you were a white male, you needed a 98 or better. However, black males needed 78 and the lowest passers were hispanic females, who needed mid 60s. I'm sorry, but if someone is walking around with a loaded weapon looking for trouble, I want them getting a 96 instead of a 66 on the exam.

Last, I went to Rutgers. It was the state school of NJ. There were at least as many if not more minorities there than whites. Many of them had to take remedial reading courses as they were illiterate. The majority of them went nowhere and failed out after a semester or so, but they ate up the grants for the kids who could have succeded but were white. Sorry, but go home and stop sucking up the money if you still can't read at 18. :moon:

I don't mind as much if people have identical scores. Personally, I'd rather find another measure then to decide besides race, etc. like extracurricular activities, community service, etc.

In your example, 1000 applicants, 950 are white, 50 black, 200 slots. If scores are used and equally distributed, I would expect there to be 190 white and 10 black students. This represents 95% white applied and 5% other. Where's the problem?

Your conclusion is right on the money. I don't believe on giving a break. I'm from the earn it or you don't get it school. I had to work full time to put myself through because my dad didn't feel obligated to pay for my education, even though he could. This made it so I couldn't get loans either. Took me 9 1/2 years. ;)

I had a buddy who took the state trooper exam in NJ and didn't get in. He got a 96 of 100. If you were a white male, you needed a 98 or better. However, black males needed 78 and the lowest passers were hispanic females, who needed mid 60s. I'm sorry, but if someone is walking around with a loaded weapon looking for trouble, I want them getting a 96 instead of a 66 on the exam.

Last, I went to Rutgers. It was the state school of NJ. There were at least as many if not more minorities there than whites. Many of them had to take remedial reading courses as they were illiterate. The majority of them went nowhere and failed out after a semester or so, but they ate up the grants for the kids who could have succeded but were white. Sorry, but go home and stop sucking up the money if you still can't read at 18. :moon:

I don't mind as much if people have identical scores. Personally, I'd rather find another measure then to decide besides race, etc. like extracurricular activities, community service, etc.

In your example, 1000 applicants, 950 are white, 50 black, 200 slots. If scores are used and equally distributed, I would expect there to be 190 white and 10 black students. This represents 95% white applied and 5% other. Where's the problem?

Your conclusion is right on the money. I don't believe on giving a break. I'm from the earn it or you don't get it school. I had to work full time to put myself through because my dad didn't feel obligated to pay for my education, even though he could. This made it so I couldn't get loans either. Took me 9 1/2 years. ;)

Never took you for a racist 3black, I have no problems with you (most of the time). The program that shafted your buddy are the programs that give Affirmative Action a bad name. Those are the ones that reward bad performance and they don't do anyone any good. AA needs to be revamped in most cases because it lets substandard minorities into a tough system that gives them no breaks. I completely agree that minorities need to make the same scores to get in. But as for your example, with the 1000 apps, I would concur. If all 1000 applicants met the "acceptable criteria" then the acceptance should be proportionate, which means some of the whites "may" have had higher scores, but the minorities had "acceptable" scores too (no lowering the acceptable score to get a quota). It would probably be unrealistic for all the 10 blacks to beat out the other 760 whites (some will some won't) this is where the statistics work against minorities, so if they don't have AA then the 10 have to be the "cream of the crop" to beat out the white majority, so without AA many of the average minorities would get left behind while many of the average whites get through due to shear numbers.

I spent my Freshman year at Rutgers, Camden. They said look to your left and right, only one of you will graduate. 6 years later, and one college transfer I did, don't know what happened to the other two next to me. I happened to make it, I would like to believe, on my own merit, but all aren't so fortunate.

please, i dont see why usa is still on middle east... sadam said he had like 100,000 soldiers to defend iraq from us troops. yes all was BS. couple mini wars in iraq for like 3 months and us was in control. now china keeps building nuclear bombs that they are testing already (not so sure about the test going on), but it's a fact that china alone is like 5 times middles east. we all know usa is a super-country with super-everything, but look what happened when bush gave his ultimatum to iraq about nuclear warheads... bang! US troops in iraq, lots of soldiers and civilians getting killed. china says they are building nuclear bombs... again USA comes and says "stop doing that or troops will arrive in 1 month". we cant try to rule the world or tell countrys what to do... if WW3 is on the way so be it... bring it on!! :machinegu

We can't tell China what to do like we can pretty much everyone else.

Where are armadas made again...not japan
With parts imported from Japan.

please, i dont see why usa is still on middle east... sadam said he had like 100,000 soldiers to defend iraq from us troops. yes all was BS. couple mini wars in iraq for like 3 months and us was in control. now china keeps building nuclear bombs that they are testing already (not so sure about the test going on), but it's a fact that china alone is like 5 times middles east. we all know usa is a super-country with super-everything, but look what happened when bush gave his ultimatum to iraq about nuclear warheads... bang! US troops in iraq, lots of soldiers and civilians getting killed. china says they are building nuclear bombs... again USA comes and says "stop doing that or troops will arrive in 1 month". we cant try to rule the world or tell countrys what to do... if WW3 is on the way so be it... bring it on!! :machinegu
Actually, he had over 1,000,000 soldiers. Iraq was the 4th largest army behind USA, Russia, and China.
China has had nukes for 40 years. I thought you knew that. What nuclear warhead ultimatum? Never gave one of those. :confused: He had a laundry list of demands of Saddam and of reasons to oust him as well. His trying to obtain nuclear yellowcake from Niger was only one of them. This came from intel provided to the US by .......... The French. Turned out incorrect but Clinton, Kerry, basically everyone that saw what he had to go on said go. Only later did Kerry retract his statements for political gain. Clinton stands by that had he seen the same stuff Bush did he also would have gone.
And uhh, we never said stop doing that to China. I think you have your countries confused. :rolleyes: We are telling North Korea to stop doing that and China is on our side strong arming North Korea. We are also telling Iran to stop or else as well. ;)

We don't tell other countries what to do with a few exceptions. One, we won't allow nuclear weapons to proliferate if possible. Two, we won't let them attack their neighbors. Three, we won't let them support terrorists. Four, we won't let them genocide their people. With this in mind, it takes a lot to make us move into action if they do any of these. We try to exhaust all other options first. Right now we have options with Iran and North Korea still. We didn't with Iraq or Afghanistan.

We can't tell China what to do like we can pretty much everyone else.
We don't. The only source of friction with China is they want to take back Taiwan and we don't want them too so we sell Taiwan weapons like F16, patriots, and destroyers among others. However, China has become economically friendly and is helping us try to keep nukes out of the hands of North Korea. They are also not doing anything about Taiwan and haven't done anything about it for decades so at this point we are on pretty good terms with them. They also have embraced capitalism within their society after they integrated Hong Kong. This is the first step toward democracy. Good things. :awesome:

Never took you for a racist 3black, I have no problems with you (most of the time). The program that shafted your buddy are the programs that give Affirmative Action a bad name. Those are the ones that reward bad performance and they don't do anyone any good. AA needs to be revamped in most cases because it lets substandard minorities into a tough system that gives them no breaks. I completely agree that minorities need to make the same scores to get in. But as for your example, with the 1000 apps, I would concur. If all 1000 applicants met the "acceptable criteria" then the acceptance should be proportionate, which means some of the whites "may" have had higher scores, but the minorities had "acceptable" scores too (no lowering the acceptable score to get a quota). It would probably be unrealistic for all the 10 blacks to beat out the other 760 whites (some will some won't) this is where the statistics work against minorities, so if they don't have AA then the 10 have to be the "cream of the crop" to beat out the white majority, so without AA many of the average minorities would get left behind while many of the average whites get through due to shear numbers.

I spent my Freshman year at Rutgers, Camden. They said look to your left and right, only one of you will graduate. 6 years later, and one college transfer I did, don't know what happened to the other two next to me. I happened to make it, I would like to believe, on my own merit, but all aren't so fortunate.
Its the acceptable criteria I don't like. Colleges shouldn't have a pool of acceptable candidates and then select from them. Don't set a mark and say we can pick anyone who scores this good or higher. Start with the best score and work your way down. We have 1000 spots, take the top 1000 scores. Don't try to pick from a pool. Only gets you into trouble. And if this ends up with picking more minorities over whites or vice versa, so be it. There should be just as many average or cream percentage wise for any race. I'm more from the camp of Darwin: survival of the fittest. :cool:

BTW, I know you haven't and probably won't call me racist. Its just that anytime I've said I don't like AA or Rap music, Urban lingo, Basketball, etc. people have labeled me racist in the past. I just figured I'd cut that arguement out up front before someone else chimed in. Guess I've become a little sensitive. :rolleyes:

yes you just named 4 things that usa wont tolerate. but why do we do it? because we think we are country number one on this world.. if there is genocide going on why nigeria or australia or norway dont do something about it? they cant, so they dont care. but since usa has the power ( and sure the army ) then we are trying to rule the world.