2006 Nissan Armada...has anyone upgraded the brakes??? any significant difference?

What size rotors are the OEM??? how many Pistons is the caliper???

Anyone upgraded to BRAIDED LINES only? any significant difference over the stock? or is it worth to spend the 1400.00 and upgrade to the BRAKE PROS kit of 2 piston calipers and 14" cross drilled rotors?

Why are you looking to upgrade? You probably won't see noticable difference unless you are autocrossing. The brakes are the best of class and it stops 60-0 as fast as the current Honda Accord. A brake upgrade won't significantly lower your stopping distance but will stop brake fade, which you run into if you are lapping a race course or doing heavy braking/accleration through twisty mountain roads. The '06 comes with the upgraded stock brakes. The '04 and some '05 had the older style that had the problems. ;)

92TripleBlack,
Thanks for the clarification. Now one more question then....does the cross drilled with braided hoses help at all?

Main reason to upgrade was for the looks. But i can sacrifice that for now...

92TripleBlack,
Thanks for the clarification. Now one more question then....does the cross drilled with braided hoses help at all?

Main reason to upgrade was for the looks. But i can sacrifice that for now...
The hoses will make the brakes feel firmer, less mushy. They help most when again you are using the brakes hard over extended periods of time and the fluid is heating up.
The cross drilled actually hurts brakes. The idea is there is a way to evacuate gases that build up between the pad and the rotor allowing for stronger contact. Now keep in mind that brakes are heat sinks. The rotors will stop for as much heat they can shed converting the movement of the SUV to heat through friction. If you run out of heat sinking ability, you get fade. Based on this, you would need some hairy brake rotors to have to get to a point that gases under the pad affect anything. Before that happens the rotor's heat shedding ability is usually reached so its meaningless. The only cars that come with them from the factory are Porsche, Z06 Corvette, Ferrari, etc. and they have multi piston calipers, huge rotors, etc.
The downside of drilled rotors is that they are far more fragile than standard rotors. Not one company will warranty any of them against cracking and failing. However, if you want the gas evacuation, you may want to try slotted rotors. All the race teams use these instead of drilled rotors they used to use. They don't crack.

Coated rotors like Nickel or Zinc will have the coating rubbed off the first hard brake you do where the pads touch. They are nice on other areas but probably best left to show cards that aren't driven.

Last, if you do want to get drilled rotors, do yourself a favor and get Baer Eradispeed rotors. Though they are again more prone to cracking than the slotted or standard, they are top quality and you'll have the best chance of getting a good set. They also look sharp. If you want to get slotted, Brembo has good slotted rotors for a reasonable price.

Some of the stuff I learned when upgrading the brakes on my vette. It now has 2004 Z06 brakes with Hawk Pads and Z06 rotors (no slots or drills). It gives some improvement in braking distance and tons more resistence to fade, which happened to me once at 120mph+. Not fun on a road approaching a T intersection. :crikey:

In terms of looks, you'll need some pretty open styled wheels to see the rotors.

When I went to the EGR slotted rotors, you can't tell with the stock wheels http://www.clubarmada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3004

The stillen big brake kit looks good from the pics at http://www.usantonio.com/stillen_big__brake.htm

The combination of plate rotors and powder coated big calipers is hard to beat.

In terms of looks, you'll need some pretty open styled wheels to see the rotors.

When I went to the EGR slotted rotors, you can't tell with the stock wheels http://www.clubarmada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3004

The stillen big brake kit looks good from the pics at http://www.usantonio.com/stillen_big__brake.htm

The combination of plate rotors and powder coated big calipers is hard to beat.
Yeah, for looks the brake upgrade makes a difference if you have open wheels. If you have wheels that are fairly strong and made to take some off road duty, you probably won't see them.

well I ordered my Big Brake kit from Stillen and should be here Next week. I will have that installed next week. I will post pictures. As for wheels, i think my will show plenty of brakes.

How did the brakes you ordered work out?? I am also thinking out going with the Stillen.

How did the brakes you ordered work out?? I am also thinking out going with the Stillen.
Only do it if you are going for looks or you plan on autocrossing your Armada. Otherwise, its a waste of money. ;)

Only do it if you are going for looks or you plan on autocrossing your Armada. Otherwise, its a waste of money. ;)
I agree completely.

So .. then the consensus is that you don't necessarily need big brake upgrade when going with the larger wheels?

Going with 22s - 24s - 26s .. would seem (more weight, more mass) to need better brakes (overall) .. ie .. bigger rotors (not necessarily slotted or drilled or both)??

As for the SS lines .. agreed a nice feature .. but for "show" .. usually can't be seen unless someone looks under there ..

So .. then the consensus is that you don't necessarily need big brake upgrade when going with the larger wheels?

Going with 22s - 24s - 26s .. would seem (more weight, more mass) to need better brakes (overall) .. ie .. bigger rotors (not necessarily slotted or drilled or both)??

As for the SS lines .. agreed a nice feature .. but for "show" .. usually can't be seen unless someone looks under there ..
No reason whatsoever for a brake upgrade when you do wheels in any case. Brakes change momentum into heat. The momentum is the weight of the SUV x its speed, not the rotating mass of the tires, etc. The only additional weight the brakes sees is the total weight, which in this case is negligable. Remember, these are fine for an Armada with 9000 lbs towed. You are typically adding at most a couple hundred pounds. You will brake as well with bigger wheels as you would with a passenger. No difference. The engine is a different story. It fights rotating mass to get its power to the street. If it needs to push more between the engine and the tires, it takes more power, and this is why you accelerate slower.

I've posted this multiple times but I'll do it again.
Bigger brake rotors are good for brake fade. They don't stop you faster. Remember, brakes convert momentum into heat. The larger the rotors, the bigger the heat sinks are, and the more energy they can convert. Big rotors are used for vehicles that undergo heavy braking for extended periods, such as racing around a track. In this case, the smaller rotors can't shed the heat fast enough and you get brake fade, which is where the rotors reach heat saturation and the brakes start to fail. Happened to me in my vette while racing.

Calipers and pads can shorten distances, but as it stands, we have the best brakes in terms of distances and stopping power of all full size SUVs. You will shorten your distances, but only sightly with larger calipers and pads. Not worth the upgrade for the money. We're talking 135 feet stock, 129 feet with bigger calipers as an example of your improved braking. I increased my pad size and caliper size by 40% on my Vette and it ddin't feel much different.

Slots and drills also need to be addressed. The idea of both is to shed gases built up while racing. When your rotors heat up to cherry red while racing, gases can build up between the rotor and the pads from the extreme heat which doesn't allow maximum friction between the pads and rotors. The idea of the slots and drills is to give the gas a place to go. This would never happen under even heavy street driving. We're talking 24 hours at LeMan's stuff here.

The drawbacks are multiple. First, their is less mass of the rotor touching the pads so you actually have less braking power if they aren't cherry hot. Second, the slots and drill holes scuff away the pads faster, giving you more brake dust and wearing out pads much faster. Third, there is no maker that will warranty any drilled rotor, period.

Drilled rotors are prone to cracking, which means catastrophic brake failure. On race vehicles, they don't care as they swap rotors often with little wear. Long term rotors on street vehicles are the ones with the failures. Finally, there is debate that the "theory" of the slots and drills actually working is still debated. I will tell you the corvette teams use slotted rotors but have dropped all the drilled ones years ago. Most drilled rotors are now for show more than anything.

And as for braided lines, they again are for racing. When your brakes are heated cherry hot, the brake fluid gets very hot, the rubber hoses heat up, and they become more pliable, making the brakes mushy. Braided SS hoses prevent this but on street applications, you won't heat up your fluid that much.

I should also mention race pads. If you need the slotted larger rotors and SS lines, you will be heating your brakes up a lot, you should get the race pads. These work better under extreme heat. But they work much worse when cool, which accounts for almost all street driving. If you aren't racing and you have race pads, you will hurt your stopping abiilty, not help it.
Hope this clears up brakes-----again. :crikey:

It does .. and thanks (I think I got it ... NOW!)

It does .. and thanks (I think I got it ... NOW!)
I hope you took that "tongue and cheek" and read in the sarcasm. ;) :D

LOL ....... *wink*

~~~~
Welcome aboard Playa!

No reason whatsoever for a brake upgrade when you do wheels in any case. Brakes change momentum into heat. The momentum is the weight of the SUV x its speed, not the rotating mass of the tires, etc. The only additional weight the brakes sees is the total weight, which in this case is negligable. Remember, these are fine for an Armada with 9000 lbs towed. You are typically adding at most a couple hundred pounds. You will brake as well with bigger wheels as you would with a passenger. No difference. The engine is a different story. It fights rotating mass to get its power to the street. If it needs to push more between the engine and the tires, it takes more power, and this is why you accelerate slower.

How can you argue that the rotating mass of the larger wheels will not affect the braking, but will affect acceleration? It's quite contradictary. The fact is, more rotating mass will affect braking. Especially in the case of larger wheels as more mass is located further from the center of the wheel. Mass that's further out from the center will have more momentum than the same mass that's closer to the center at the same RPM. It's basically leverage. The concept is the same whether you are trying to accelerate the wheel or decelerate it (deceleration is negative acceleration).

mine arrived and I am installing friday.

How can you argue that the rotating mass of the larger wheels will not affect the braking, but will affect acceleration? It's quite contradictary. The fact is, more rotating mass will affect braking. Especially in the case of larger wheels as more mass is located further from the center of the wheel. Mass that's further out from the center will have more momentum than the same mass that's closer to the center at the same RPM. It's basically leverage. The concept is the same whether you are trying to accelerate the wheel or decelerate it (deceleration is negative acceleration).
In acceleration, the motor needs to fight through rotating mass through the entire drivetrain. Putting a heavier weight at the end of the drivetrain indead acts as leverage against the motor. But the brakes aren't working thorugh the entire drivetrain, they are at the source. much less leverage vs. them. Kinda like grabbing the base of a handle vs the end of a handle. You get much more torque on the end than the base, or at least that's how it was explained to me. A

Another way to explain it and also maybe the cause of the confusion is that the leverage the brake fights is from the distance from the center of the rim to the outer edge of the tread. If you increase this distance, the brakes loose leverage, but decreasing it they gain leverage. Larger rims usually have smaller tires profile wise, which evens out the overall diameter, and therefore the leverage is the same. Large outer diameter tires such as on lifted trucks require bigger brakes, not bigger inner rims.

As for real world results, I notice no difference braking but a large difference accelerating with big tires. I also notice a difference when I have several passengers or a 1000 lbs trailer on the back. This would suggest that the impact of the big tires on braking is much less of an impact than a couple passengers, which again would lead to them impacting as much as their additional weight, not that weight compounded expodentially by rotation. And I do probably have a one of the heavier sets of tires/rims on the board. ;)

Both arguements make sense to me but I think what we need to differentiate is that if the wheels were off the ground spinning free, then the weight of the wheel/tire and the placement of the mass makes a huge difference.
But, in the case where the tires are touching the ground (hopefully where they spend most of their time), then the the extra weight of bigger or heavier wheels is negligable.
That being said, I've done tests a few years back with a 1998 BMW E36 (M3) comparing 0-60-0 tests with stock vs superlite wheels. The acceleration was definetely hurt by the heavier wheels, while braking had no affect.
I can't explain it in equations or formulas, but it was the real world results.

So back to the Armada brakes. After I had the OEM updated ones put on on my 04 Armada, I've had no problems at all with the brakes. I tow a 6,500 lbs trailer many times up and down from Mammoth and Tahoe and never felt fade or have experienced any warping.

I would doubt IMO that bigger brakes are needed at all for 22-26 inch wheels. Now if you take the Armada to the track and spend a couple hours trying to keep up with the M3's, 911's, and Corvettes, then maybe bigger brakes and a supercharger would help.

Another way to explain it and also maybe the cause of the confusion is that the leverage the brake fights is from the distance from the center of the rim to the outer edge of the tread. If you increase this distance, the brakes loose leverage, but decreasing it they gain leverage. Larger rims usually have smaller tires profile wise, which evens out the overall diameter, and therefore the leverage is the same. Large outer diameter tires such as on lifted trucks require bigger brakes, not bigger inner rims.


As I stated before, larger wheels have more mass located away from the center of rotation. This is true even if the outer diameter stays the same. Metal is denser than rubber last I checked and with wider diameter wheels, it locates much more of it further out from center. to get an idea of what this does in terms of leverage, take a 5-6 foot long stick and attach a 5 lb weight on the end of it. Hold the other end and let the end with the weight on it fall from a straight up position. When it gets parallel to the ground, try to stop it using only your hand on the opposite end. Repeat this test while attaching the weight about halfway down the stick. Then again with the weight 6 inches from your hand. All tests are to occur with the same stick so the diameter essentially remains the same with only a shift in the location of mass in relation to center. The overall mass would stay the same. Your observation should be that it will take more effort from your hand to stop the end of the pole from falling when the weight is further from your hand. It's simple physics.

Now bear in mind that this rule may not have an effect on stopping distances. It simply requires more pedal pressure to get the car to stop in theory. The initial braking as you depress the pedal may be affected slightly which may increase the onset of deceleration, but ultimately the grip at the tires determine the ability to stop. But the increased pedal effort and resistance to stopping puts a bigger heat load on the rotors. This can have an effect on repeated braking. It can also make it a problem when towing and stopping from high speeds when rotors can overheat during a single stop. For mild street driving, most people may only notice a mild increase in the required pedal effort, but it is a real issue.

And physics laws won't support anywhere that the rotating mass would affect braking any less than it would acceleration. I'd love to see mathematical proof of it. But I guarantee noone can provide it. You might observe no difference as an engine's output can't simply be increased beyond what it sees at WOT. Braking is a function of pedal pressure. If your foot can provide it, the brake will respond to it.

People who compete at tracks and autocrosses seriously put a lot of emphasis on keeping wheel/tire weights down. Most autocrossers don't need oversized brakes as runs are generally too short to overheat anything, but generally try to use as small a wheel diameter as possible(even if overall tire diameter is not changed). Wheel weight is an important consideration because the rotating mass affects both acceleration and deceleration and unsprung mass. It affects every aspect of a car's movements.

A larger brake rotor allows for 2 things in this situation. It gives potential to easily make more brake torque without having to change pedal pressure or travel. It also generally provides more mass and surface area to absorb and dissapate heat. Given the brake issues people are seeing on many Titans, I'd speculate the problem lies in the rotor mass. The updated parts are thicker internally, giving up some venting area for additional mass. I'd hardly call these rotors sufficient for towing or even making it down long steep hills or mountain roads. It would appear the factory rotors are either warping or they are getting so hot that the pad material is cooking onto the rotors when people are stopped at a light after a hard braking event. Add in larger wheels and it only adds to the problem.

So what about adding better material for brake pads such as ceramic, do they work well with the stock rotors??

So what about adding better material for brake pads such as ceramic, do they work well with the stock rotors??
Ceramic pads work fine. Aftermarket pads are good, but stock is also very good. Remember, we start with the best brakes in the class and they are designed to handle a 9000 lbs trailer. Are you really concerned about a rim a couple inches wider than stock?:rolleyes:

As I stated before, larger wheels have more mass located away from the center of rotation. This is true even if the outer diameter stays the same. Metal is denser than rubber last I checked and with wider diameter wheels, it locates much more of it further out from center. to get an idea of what this does in terms of leverage, take a 5-6 foot long stick and attach a 5 lb weight on the end of it. Hold the other end and let the end with the weight on it fall from a straight up position. When it gets parallel to the ground, try to stop it using only your hand on the opposite end. Repeat this test while attaching the weight about halfway down the stick. Then again with the weight 6 inches from your hand. All tests are to occur with the same stick so the diameter essentially remains the same with only a shift in the location of mass in relation to center. The overall mass would stay the same. Your observation should be that it will take more effort from your hand to stop the end of the pole from falling when the weight is further from your hand. It's simple physics.
But proportionately, the added mass of the wheels to the overall momentum of the vehicle, it is neglidable in our case unless you are going monster tire. 24" rims don't qualify.


Now bear in mind that this rule may not have an effect on stopping distances. It simply requires more pedal pressure to get the car to stop in theory. The initial braking as you depress the pedal may be affected slightly which may increase the onset of deceleration, but ultimately the grip at the tires determine the ability to stop. But the increased pedal effort and resistance to stopping puts a bigger heat load on the rotors. This can have an effect on repeated braking. It can also make it a problem when towing and stopping from high speeds when rotors can overheat during a single stop. For mild street driving, most people may only notice a mild increase in the required pedal effort, but it is a real issue.
Correct, except it isn't a real issue for us. Our brakes are over engineered.

And physics laws won't support anywhere that the rotating mass would affect braking any less than it would acceleration. I'd love to see mathematical proof of it. But I guarantee noone can provide it. You might observe no difference as an engine's output can't simply be increased beyond what it sees at WOT. Braking is a function of pedal pressure. If your foot can provide it, the brake will respond to it.
Correct, except, the engine has to fight through the entire drive train, which adds friction all along. The rotational mass being at the tail end of that drivetrain has a more pronounced effect that it does on brakes.

People who compete at tracks and autocrosses seriously put a lot of emphasis on keeping wheel/tire weights down. Most autocrossers don't need oversized brakes as runs are generally too short to overheat anything, but generally try to use as small a wheel diameter as possible(even if overall tire diameter is not changed). Wheel weight is an important consideration because the rotating mass affects both acceleration and deceleration and unsprung mass. It affects every aspect of a car's movements. They keep the tire weights down to help acceleration. Braking issues can be compensated for easily with just a pad swap. Much more of an issue for autocrossers is brake fade, due to repeated heavy braking independent of wheel weight.

A larger brake rotor allows for 2 things in this situation. It gives potential to easily make more brake torque without having to change pedal pressure or travel. It also generally provides more mass and surface area to absorb and dissapate heat. Given the brake issues people are seeing on many Titans, I'd speculate the problem lies in the rotor mass. The updated parts are thicker internally, giving up some venting area for additional mass. I'd hardly call these rotors sufficient for towing or even making it down long steep hills or mountain roads. It would appear the factory rotors are either warping or they are getting so hot that the pad material is cooking onto the rotors when people are stopped at a light after a hard braking event. Add in larger wheels and it only adds to the problem.
Larger brake rotor DIAMETER adds brake torque. Larger pads/calipers add surface area, which in turn will help translate the movement of the vehicle into heat in the rotors.

The stock rotors from '04-'05 were prone to warping. The added mass has killed this. Plenty of towers here without brake rotor problems. Remember, our stock brakes are better than F150, Ram 1500, etc. And cherry hot rotors so hot the pad material cooks into rotors to warp them isn't what's happening. The most common reason is fast cooling of a hot rotor, such as hitting a puddle after it is heated up. The new rotors resist this pretty well, as well or better than as any stock setup out there now. :rolleyes:

Ceramic pads work fine. Aftermarket pads are good, but stock is also very good. Remember, we start with the best brakes in the class and they are designed to handle a 9000 lbs trailer. Are you really concerned about a rim a couple inches wider than stock?:rolleyes: Ok MR. Know-it-all:rolleyes: If you believe that the stock pads are great for all around driving with 9k tied to your back, then 85 pounds of luggage, 28 gallons of fuel, a full load of ppl and some 12inch speakers on a road trip, in stop and go traffic all day must be a cakewalk.

Bottom line is this:
If the stock brakes can stop the wheels from rotating under all your driving conditions then no other brake system can do more.

I'm not sure where you keep coming up with this over-engineered bit. Stopping distances are not an indication of heat capacity or dissapation. Most OE brake systems can not handle any more than a few hard stops in relatively quick succession without overheating them. Considering the brake vibration issues these cars and Titans have had, it would be an indication that it is a bit on the small side. The updated brakes are marginally better as the overall dimensions are the same. Thickening the plates is a solution, but at a cost to vent surface area. Nor is it a very substantial increase in mass. I'd hardly call this type of change to a marginal rotor "over-engineered".

In any case, stopping distance is a function of tire grip and brake bias in relation to weight transfer. Comparing to other trucks in the same class, Ford boasts a 13" rotor. Not sure on the thickness, but I would speculate it would be at least as thick as the Nissan rotors. Chevy uses an 11.8" rotor, but is 30 mm thick. It's probably a wash here. But basically, I don't see any clear indication that the Nissan's brakes are over-engineered. Unless all these brakes are over-engineered.

Yes, the motor has to fight the weight of the drivetrain. But keep in mind, the drivetrain is still attached to the axles when braking. The brakes have to fight this same rotational mass.

Pads don't change the amount of energy the brakes are required to convert to heat. You can change friction coefficients, and optimize the heat range, but ultimately, you still need rotor mass to act as the heat sink. Somehow, though, you seem to be missing the point here. Wheel weight has an effect on brake fade. Heavier wheel weight means more brake pressure needs to be applied to stop the car at the same rate. Brake fade occurs sooner. And if you think pads are a great fix, consider that pads that can handle higher temps tend to give up cold braking performance. So, do you want to give up braking you will see more often for even the occasional tow?

Brake rotor diameter does add brake torque. Same point I was making, but I wasn't clear.

Quality rotors these days are much less prone to warping than they used to be. You'ld have to try pretty hard to actually warp a rotor. And I highly doubt splash water is causing all these rotor issues. Consider how much water would have to hit the rotor to distort the shape. Consider how high the rotor sits off the ground on these trucks. It's very unlikely that so many people out there are warping their rotors from mild splashing onto the rotors.

Excess pad material on a rotor is commonly mistaken for warping as symptoms are similar and the solution is the same. In a worst case scenario, you can actually inbed carbon material from the pad into the rotor. This can be diagnosed as a rotor warping problem due to the fact that the carbonized portion is harder than the rest of the rotor. As the rotor wears, it causes uneven wear, where the carbonized portion wears slower and becomes a high point on the surface which can show if you mic it, but the problem isn't that the rotor physically distorted. It is an issue of the rotor wearing unevenly. I wouldn't doubt that many of the problems where a dealer turns the rotors only to have the vibration return as the rotor wears is due to this issue as the imbedded carbon can be deep enough that turning the rotor may never get rid of the uneven surface hardness. Consider, to cause such carbonizing isn't hard. Perhaps a couple of hard stops without much time between, and then getting stuck at a stoplight. These trucks have plenty of torque pulling the car at idle and requires a moderate amount of brake pressure to hold the car still. Combine hot rotors and standing at a light for a minute or two and you've easily toasted a rotor.

But my original point was that you stated that rotational mass has no effect on brakes. And this is simply untrue. It has just as much effect on braking as it does on acceleration. You likely won't notice the difference in a single stop other than perhaps a difference in pedal pressure if you are paying attention. It would rear it's head in the form of fade earlier than a lighter wheel set-up. Most probably won't notice in everyday driving. To me though, brakes are not about everyday driving. I want my brakes to be there when I need them the most. Given the brake system's history of issues, I'd be reluctant to tow heavy loads without a brake upgrade even on stock wheels and tires.

I'm not sure where you keep coming up with this over-engineered bit. Stopping distances are not an indication of heat capacity or dissapation. Most OE brake systems can not handle any more than a few hard stops in relatively quick succession without overheating them. Considering the brake vibration issues these cars and Titans have had, it would be an indication that it is a bit on the small side. The updated brakes are marginally better as the overall dimensions are the same. Thickening the plates is a solution, but at a cost to vent surface area. Nor is it a very substantial increase in mass. I'd hardly call this type of change to a marginal rotor "over-engineered".

In any case, stopping distance is a function of tire grip and brake bias in relation to weight transfer. Comparing to other trucks in the same class, Ford boasts a 13" rotor. Not sure on the thickness, but I would speculate it would be at least as thick as the Nissan rotors. Chevy uses an 11.8" rotor, but is 30 mm thick. It's probably a wash here. But basically, I don't see any clear indication that the Nissan's brakes are over-engineered. Unless all these brakes are over-engineered.

Yes, the motor has to fight the weight of the drivetrain. But keep in mind, the drivetrain is still attached to the axles when braking. The brakes have to fight this same rotational mass.

Pads don't change the amount of energy the brakes are required to convert to heat. You can change friction coefficients, and optimize the heat range, but ultimately, you still need rotor mass to act as the heat sink. Somehow, though, you seem to be missing the point here. Wheel weight has an effect on brake fade. Heavier wheel weight means more brake pressure needs to be applied to stop the car at the same rate. Brake fade occurs sooner. And if you think pads are a great fix, consider that pads that can handle higher temps tend to give up cold braking performance. So, do you want to give up braking you will see more often for even the occasional tow?

Brake rotor diameter does add brake torque. Same point I was making, but I wasn't clear.

Quality rotors these days are much less prone to warping than they used to be. You'ld have to try pretty hard to actually warp a rotor. And I highly doubt splash water is causing all these rotor issues. Consider how much water would have to hit the rotor to distort the shape. Consider how high the rotor sits off the ground on these trucks. It's very unlikely that so many people out there are warping their rotors from mild splashing onto the rotors.

Excess pad material on a rotor is commonly mistaken for warping as symptoms are similar and the solution is the same. In a worst case scenario, you can actually inbed carbon material from the pad into the rotor. This can be diagnosed as a rotor warping problem due to the fact that the carbonized portion is harder than the rest of the rotor. As the rotor wears, it causes uneven wear, where the carbonized portion wears slower and becomes a high point on the surface which can show if you mic it, but the problem isn't that the rotor physically distorted. It is an issue of the rotor wearing unevenly. I wouldn't doubt that many of the problems where a dealer turns the rotors only to have the vibration return as the rotor wears is due to this issue as the imbedded carbon can be deep enough that turning the rotor may never get rid of the uneven surface hardness. Consider, to cause such carbonizing isn't hard. Perhaps a couple of hard stops without much time between, and then getting stuck at a stoplight. These trucks have plenty of torque pulling the car at idle and requires a moderate amount of brake pressure to hold the car still. Combine hot rotors and standing at a light for a minute or two and you've easily toasted a rotor.

But my original point was that you stated that rotational mass has no effect on brakes. And this is simply untrue. It has just as much effect on braking as it does on acceleration. You likely won't notice the difference in a single stop other than perhaps a difference in pedal pressure if you are paying attention. It would rear it's head in the form of fade earlier than a lighter wheel set-up. Most probably won't notice in everyday driving. To me though, brakes are not about everyday driving. I want my brakes to be there when I need them the most. Given the brake system's history of issues, I'd be reluctant to tow heavy loads without a brake upgrade even on stock wheels and tires.
To reply to your war and peace, they aren't engineered to stop repeatedly hard. No OEM brakes are. But you don't need that. They are over engineered from the point that they will stop you better than other factory vehicles in the class and are now more resistent to warping than other OEM setups. Since I don't know anyone that autocrosses an Armada, more is unnecessary. You won't heat up our brakes to the point of warping from normal or even hard street driving.

The "fix" was more mass near the center and a different parts supplier. They had problems with this supplier for ALL Nissans. My '04 G35 had the same problem. They recalled these and the new brakes ARE better than any other stock system. The problem wasn't poor design, it was poor parts supplier.

The motor disengages at the trans when you are braking so the brakes don't fight this mass.

You are correct on your pad assessment. I agree, but I'm confused why you posted it.

The "quality" rotor point is the point I'm making about the new rotors. The new ones are less prone to warping due to manufacture and probably slightly different metalurgy. However, the whole truck gets wet driving through a puddle. You don't need to stop in it to get a rotor wet.

To embed pad material into a rotor you'd have to heat it up far more than you would street driving. Again, this would be an autocross phenom. I have never heard of this happening on a street vehicle and the amount of times it would occur would be insignificant vs. the amount of times the rotors actually warped.

And finally, I never said rotational mass of wheels had no effect on braking. I said it would be so minor as to not be worth bothering with, which I stand by. The stock brakes are more than up to the task and there is no reason to buy a brake upgrade other than if you want to autocross it or for looks.

Ladies and gentlemen, you can listen to MR. Jeeves and friends all day long about their theroy on how upgrading is waste of money. If speed kills, brakes can bring back life yada yada yada. Buy cheep k and n air filters, buy cheep exhuast and fancy electric fans... But please, dont go cheep on brakes. If you have the money, buy them. Take it from somebody who lives in the real world, drives 80 ton trucks 100k miles a year and can tell you, BRAKES WILL FADE UNDER LOAD AND BETTER ONES CAN CUT THAT IN HALF!!!!!!!!!

Ladies and gentlemen, you can listen to MR. Jeeves and friends all day long about their theroy on how upgrading is waste of money. If speed kills, brakes can bring back life yada yada yada. Buy cheep k and n air filters, buy cheep exhuast and fancy electric fans... But please, dont go cheep on brakes. If you have the money, buy them. Take it from somebody who lives in the real world, drives 80 ton trucks 100k miles a year and can tell you, BRAKES WILL FADE UNDER LOAD AND BETTER ONES CAN CUT THAT IN HALF!!!!!!!!!
But those are truck brakes, truck loads, etc. Not passenger car brakes, loads, etc. which don't push the limits of brakes nearly as much. Waste of money unless you plan on autocrossing or want them for looks. Here's an idea. Get your wheels, drive around braking hard for 5 minutes, which wouldn't happen real world, and see what it takes to induce fade. This would be a very stringent test as you would never do this driving around town, road trips, etc. It would normally only happen if you were racing. Bet you're surprised how long it takes and how much repetitive hard braking. Then if you feel you need more, get more. :rolleyes:

You don't need to brake repeatedly hard to fade brakes. Add weight to it along with a trailer. Go downhill...say...from going camping with the family. Things get heavy and taxing on the brakes real quick.

The G35's did not have the same problem. The problem for the G35's were that the brakes wore out too quickly. There is no indication that the G35 rotors were warping under normal use.

Poking around in several Titan and Armada Forums, I noticed there are still plenty of complaints about the brake judder with the newer rotors. I'm sure it helps, but there is still some indication it's still an issue for many. This still leads me back to the issue of the brakes being over-engineered. I consider normal use to encompass some level of tow and perhaps recreational travel with these trucks. If a relatively high percentage of drivers are stilll experiencing the brake judder, then it would appear that the rotors may still be conservatively sized for this application.

Auto trannies don't "disengage" so to speak. They are quite ineffective at transferring torque from the tranny to the engine. But all of the rotational mass up to the torque converter is still connected to the drivetrain. So essentially, the only thing you are missing in terms of mass is the crankshaft, rods and pistons.

As for the rotors getting wet, it takes quite a difference in heat across the rotor to cause warping. Splashing through a puddle pushes water away from the tires. The rotors will be pretty well isolated. Driving through a puddle deep enough to immerse a portion of the rotor would be a more likely cause of actual warping.

Street driving does not have a strict definition. And some people drive more aggressively than others. Some leave their homes every morning and travel down steep hills. There are some areas around here that you can sit at the bottom of a hill and smell cooked brakes all morning as drivers make their way down long steep hills. You speak as if autocrossing is the only way to really heat up a rotor.

And finally, I never said rotational mass of wheels had no effect on braking. I said it would be so minor as to not be worth bothering with, which I stand by. The stock brakes are more than up to the task and there is no reason to buy a brake upgrade other than if you want to autocross it or for looks.

You didn't?

No reason whatsoever for a brake upgrade when you do wheels in any case. Brakes change momentum into heat. The momentum is the weight of the SUV x its speed, not the rotating mass of the tires, etc. The only additional weight the brakes sees is the total weight, which in this case is negligable. Remember, these are fine for an Armada with 9000 lbs towed. You are typically adding at most a couple hundred pounds. You will brake as well with bigger wheels as you would with a passenger. No difference. The engine is a different story. It fights rotating mass to get its power to the street. If it needs to push more between the engine and the tires, it takes more power, and this is why you accelerate slower.

:rolleyes:

But those are truck brakes, truck loads, etc. Not passenger car brakes, loads, etc. which don't push the limits of brakes nearly as much. Waste of money unless you plan on autocrossing or want them for looks. Here's an idea. Get your wheels, drive around braking hard for 5 minutes, which wouldn't happen real world, and see what it takes to induce fade. This would be a very stringent test as you would never do this driving around town, road trips, etc. It would normally only happen if you were racing. Bet you're surprised how long it takes and how much repetitive hard braking. Then if you feel you need more, get more. :rolleyes:

The Armada isn't considered a truck? Well I'll be darned. I guess I should have just purchased a Corvette to tow 9000 lbs around...

The Armada isn't considered a truck? Well I'll be darned. I guess I should have just purchased a Corvette to tow 9000 lbs around...

I think TB meant big trucks, trucks as in 18 wheeler, semi's:cool:

The Armada isn't considered a truck? Well I'll be darned. I guess I should have just purchased a Corvette to tow 9000 lbs around...
It isn't a diesel semi, its an SUV. The reply was to a professional truck driver. :rolleyes:

You don't need to brake repeatedly hard to fade brakes. Add weight to it along with a trailer. Go downhill...say...from going camping with the family. Things get heavy and taxing on the brakes real quick.

The G35's did not have the same problem. The problem for the G35's were that the brakes wore out too quickly. There is no indication that the G35 rotors were warping under normal use.

Poking around in several Titan and Armada Forums, I noticed there are still plenty of complaints about the brake judder with the newer rotors. I'm sure it helps, but there is still some indication it's still an issue for many. This still leads me back to the issue of the brakes being over-engineered. I consider normal use to encompass some level of tow and perhaps recreational travel with these trucks. If a relatively high percentage of drivers are stilll experiencing the brake judder, then it would appear that the rotors may still be conservatively sized for this application.

Auto trannies don't "disengage" so to speak. They are quite ineffective at transferring torque from the tranny to the engine. But all of the rotational mass up to the torque converter is still connected to the drivetrain. So essentially, the only thing you are missing in terms of mass is the crankshaft, rods and pistons.

As for the rotors getting wet, it takes quite a difference in heat across the rotor to cause warping. Splashing through a puddle pushes water away from the tires. The rotors will be pretty well isolated. Driving through a puddle deep enough to immerse a portion of the rotor would be a more likely cause of actual warping.

Street driving does not have a strict definition. And some people drive more aggressively than others. Some leave their homes every morning and travel down steep hills. There are some areas around here that you can sit at the bottom of a hill and smell cooked brakes all morning as drivers make their way down long steep hills. You speak as if autocrossing is the only way to really heat up a rotor.



You didn't?



:rolleyes:
I've heard of 1, ONE case of warped rotors on Armadas since the swap. A huge amount before. Similarly, TOYota, Ford, GM, and Dodge have had more on average than us since the swap.

I lived in the Northeast in the mountains. I have NEVER experienced brake fade on the road and I drove HARD. This is with 100,000 miles of driving with vehicles with far worse brakes. NEVER. I did experience it ONCE in my vette during a corvette club ride after driving 75+ in a 25 mph zone full of corners I went braking hard into for 20 minutes and then trying to stop from 120 at the end. However, I upgraded the brakes after that from standard C4 to Z06 C5 and didn't have a problem after. This was again the ONLY time I had brake issues and I did have oversized rims and tires on the vette. I was running 17x11 forged on the rear with 315-35s, much larger than stock, and no fade with stock brakes during regular driving.

I OWN a G35, so don't tell me they weren't having the same problem. I HAD the warped rotors replaced under warranty and got the recall in the mail about it.

Again, we now have the LOWEST percentage of people experiencing brake warp after the fix of ALL full size SUVs and Trucks. Fact. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Last, as far as street driving, I drive VERY hard. I don't know anyone who drives as hard as I do. I'm on my 4th set of tires and 3rd set of brakes on my G35 with 60k on the odometer. I also had 47 points for speeding in NJ before moving to NY. Since then about 20 more, but I only have 4 right now. As hard as I drive, no fade, ever. Sorry. :rolleyes:

C-Kwik,
I see where you're coming from but you're not giving Nissan due credit on the brakes. My 2004 were faulty and Nissan replaced it. I do tow 5-7k trailer up and down from over 10k to sea level. I've riden the brakes with a trailer down 6,000 ft downhill over an hour. Many times.
No problem.

I doubt if you were to stuff 8 people inside with luggage and a roof cargo rack, it would be even close to the stress I put on the brakes when I tow.

But yes, I think we all agree that larger diameter and higher quality brakes is always better. But Nissan has done a good job with putting in good enough brakes. Over engineered? Don't know, but they are as good as any OEM ones out there.

C-Kwik,
I see where you're coming from but you're not giving Nissan due credit on the brakes. My 2004 were faulty and Nissan replaced it. I do tow 5-7k trailer up and down from over 10k to sea level. I've riden the brakes with a trailer down 6,000 ft downhill over an hour. Many times.
No problem.

I doubt if you were to stuff 8 people inside with luggage and a roof cargo rack, it would be even close to the stress I put on the brakes when I tow.

But yes, I think we all agree that larger diameter and higher quality brakes is always better. But Nissan has done a good job with putting in good enough brakes. Over engineered? Don't know, but they are as good as any OEM ones out there.
Well put. My "overengineered" was meant to emphasize that they are the best of class, and therefore better engineered than what other makers consider adequate. However, you can never over engineer brakes. You just need to come to a point where you say that this is as good as you need to be to ensure 99.99% of the time you are fine. Whatever the benchmark they needed to hit, Nissan beat it with the best brakes of the class coming from one of the worst to start out. The only worse out the gate were the TOYota's which took 4 years to fix, not 18 months, and weren't covered under warranty as Nissans were. ;)

But those are truck brakes, truck loads, etc. Not passenger car brakes, loads, etc. which don't push the limits of brakes nearly as much. Waste of money unless you plan on autocrossing or want them for looks. Here's an idea. Get your wheels, drive around braking hard for 5 minutes, which wouldn't happen real world, and see what it takes to induce fade. This would be a very stringent test as you would never do this driving around town, road trips, etc. It would normally only happen if you were racing. Bet you're surprised how long it takes and how much repetitive hard braking. Then if you feel you need more, get more. :rolleyes: Wether its 80 tons or an extra 1k pounds in our suv's or pulling the maximum load. Anybody who floors the SUV from time to time even in a few stop and go sitiutions, block to block whatever will cause brake stopping problems REAL QUICK especially with heavy vehicles with the stock brakes. THIS IS OLD NEWS. And Autocrossing and drivng around town in the same manner?? Whats the difference in driving styles?? I think you just frown upon wild driving from time to time. Go in the kitchen and get me a beer while your there.

Wether its 80 tons or an extra 1k pounds in our suv's or pulling the maximum load. Anybody who floors the SUV from time to time even in a few stop and go sitiutions, block to block whatever will cause brake stopping problems REAL QUICK especially with heavy vehicles with the stock brakes. THIS IS OLD NEWS. And Autocrossing and drivng around town in the same manner?? Whats the difference in driving styles?? I think you just frown upon wild driving from time to time. Go in the kitchen and get me a beer while your there.
I think you've had one too many already :)

I think you've had one too many already :)
I agree. I only floor it and brake hard. I can't remember not doing that. Never had ANY fade yet. :rolleyes:

I think the whole "fade" issue stems from Hondas, which are "supposedly" fast cars but are really designed as basic transportion for the average adult and they are notorious for having junky stock brakes. Worst of class. Yet people drive them like they were Corvettes, so you would find fade there. But I haven't found any with the Armada and I rip around as hard as possible in mine. 25K worth. As far as street vs. autocross, in autocross you speed up to every corner as hard as possible, brake hard going in and accelerate hard going out. You do this 6-10 times a minute around a track. I'm not talking once around a lot. No fade there. I'm talking laps at limerock. This is where you get all the fade, cherry hot rotors, need the hot temp pads, slotted rotors, etc. Autocross laps in a parking lot are so short you would be hard pressed to heat up a good set of pads let alone get into serious fade.

BTW, the fade I had in the vette I spoke about above, I needed 4 times the distance to stop and for all intents had no brakes for 15 seconds or so. I was standing on them and not stopping. Not fun.

C-Kwik,
I see where you're coming from but you're not giving Nissan due credit on the brakes. My 2004 were faulty and Nissan replaced it. I do tow 5-7k trailer up and down from over 10k to sea level. I've riden the brakes with a trailer down 6,000 ft downhill over an hour. Many times.
No problem.

I doubt if you were to stuff 8 people inside with luggage and a roof cargo rack, it would be even close to the stress I put on the brakes when I tow.

But yes, I think we all agree that larger diameter and higher quality brakes is always better. But Nissan has done a good job with putting in good enough brakes. Over engineered? Don't know, but they are as good as any OEM ones out there.

My original point had much more to due with the rotational mass. It took a very big tangent, but I responded. I didn't say the brakes, or even the updated brakes can't stop the car. But I simply don't feel they deserve to be called over-engineered. It's misleading. I can only speculate that TripleBlack was trying to change the course of his argument to diffuse the incorrect statement. His response to my lasts posts tells all. Instead of arguing technical points, he reverts to submitting his resume of experience which does nothing to prove any of his arguments. Bear in mind, the brake problem was relatvely frequent, it did not affect every driver/truck. The update is going to reduce that number, but the problem will still occur. I still wouldn't refer to it as over-engineered by any means.

Well put. My "overengineered" was meant to emphasize that they are the best of class, and therefore better engineered than what other makers consider adequate. However, you can never over engineer brakes. You just need to come to a point where you say that this is as good as you need to be to ensure 99.99% of the time you are fine. Whatever the benchmark they needed to hit, Nissan beat it with the best brakes of the class coming from one of the worst to start out. The only worse out the gate were the TOYota's which took 4 years to fix, not 18 months, and weren't covered under warranty as Nissans were. ;)

My parents own a Chevy Conversion Van which is quite heavy and had one instance of warped brakes. The deformity affected most of the rotor as it was not violent, just a mild back and forth motion in the steering under braking. With over 100K miles, it has no problem. My dad drives a GMC work truck with tons of tools and equipment loaded inthe back. never an issue with warped brakes. Ton's of failed bearings, but rotors have always held up. He's got about 200K on it by now on a 2001 model. He tows heavy equipment with this thing on occassion as well. The rest of the truck is junk, but I can't complain about it's brakes. perhaps at this point, we can agree to disagree on our assessment of "over-engineering" but I have certainly seen better. And I'm not talking about stopping distances either.

Instead of arguing technical points, he reverts to submitting his resume of experience which does nothing to prove any of his arguments. Bear in mind, the brake problem was relatvely frequent, it did not affect every driver/truck. The update is going to reduce that number, but the problem will still occur. I still wouldn't refer to it as over-engineered by any means.
Because I was bored with it all. You post books. But I still stand by the fact that they went past adequate, which is over engineering. Adequate is what everyone else provides. I guess we have different interpretations of over engineering.
As for frequent, it was on '04 and early '05. It is now extinct, but you have repeatedly said the new brakes are still having problems. They aren't. The frequency is well under the number you would typically find on any other OEM brake set of its class. And you still haven't replied to my G35 rebuttle. Guess you just avoided that one. :rolleyes:

As for the GMC, GM has had a much higher occurance with brake warping than Nissan since the fix. ;)

Because I was bored with it all. You post books. But I still stand by the fact that they went past adequate, which is over engineering. Adequate is what everyone else provides. I guess we have different interpretations of over engineering.
As for frequent, it was on '04 and early '05. It is now extinct, but you have repeatedly said the new brakes are still having problems. They aren't. The frequency is well under the number you would typically find on any other OEM brake set of its class. And you still haven't replied to my G35 rebuttle. Guess you just avoided that one. :rolleyes:

As for the GMC, GM has had a much higher occurance with brake warping than Nissan since the fix. ;)

As I said, in poking around various Titan and Armada forums, there is still an occurrence of the judder. This is strictly my observation.

The G35 argument is again, irrelevant. but since you ask, I actually have OWNED a 2004 G35 6MT Coupe. I AM a G35 forum moderator at Nicoclub. I just don't feel it is important to mention it as it carries no weight in a technical argument. I just don't feel it is important to brag about my motorsports experiences(which I do have) to try and win a debate.

But since my experince is irrelevant as well, here's the proof:

http://www.lemonlawclaims.com/nissan_g_35_brake_class_action.htm

"The lawsuit asks that the automaker reimburse owners of G35 sports sedans and coupes made in 2003 and 2004 for the costs of fixing the defect, which allegedly causes brake pads and rotors to wear out faster than normal. "

https://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/nissanna

"The suit was filed due to a brake defect in the Infiniti G35 which causes brake pads and rotors to wear out faster than normal. "

http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34973&highlight=brake+warranty

Shall I keep going?

LOS ANGELES, Oct 11 (Reuters) - Consumers have filed a proposed nationwide class action suit in Los Angeles against Nissan North America Inc. over a brake defect in the Infiniti G35 they say has undercut the vehicle's resale value.

The lawsuit, filed on Friday, asks that the automaker reimburse owners of G35 sports sedans and coupes made in 2003 and 2004 for the costs of fixing the defect, which causes brake pads and rotors to wear out faster than normal.
A similar lawsuit was filed last month in Florida.

Nissan disclosed the problem in late 2003, and amended its warranty to cover the brake pad and brake rotor replacements for the first three years or 36,000 miles the buyer owns or leases the car, Nissan spokesman Kyle Bazemore said.

The company also reimbursed owners for brake maintenance that had already been performed, Bazemore said.

Bazemore said the company had no comment on the California lawsuit, but described the Florida claim as "unfounded."

The lawsuit claims the brake problem "significantly increased the expected costs of ownership of a G35 well beyond the warranty amendment" and diminished the car's value.

"You're still going to have to replace brakes and rotors more often than you normally would," said plaintiffs lawyer Aashish Desai.

"Who is going to want to buy a (used G35) when they know they have to replace the pads and rotors every year?"

Nissan North America, based in Gardena, California, is a division of Tokyo-based Nissan Motor Co.

Like I said, the brake pads and rotors were and issue throughout Nissan. This is a similar problem to what we were having. The pads were replaced for acclerated wear and excessive dusting. The rotors for warping. They had this problem in the '03 and '04 G35 and '04 and '05 Armadas, Titans, etc. Not sure how posting info about what I was saying proves a point for you. :confused:

As for poking around, I don't know many who have poked around more than me on Titan and Armada sites. And again, the issue is dead with the fix. The amount of reoccurances after the fix is almost nil. Most of the complaints were from people who thought they got the "new" parts and really just got their rotors turned. Nissan had a policy of turning the rotors 3 times before replacing, and most didn't know that. The '06 ones you don't find with problems because they came with the upgraded parts from the factory.

Ford Brake issues
http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246652&highlight=brake+warping
GM Brake issues
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_tahoe_brakes.html
Dodge Brakes
http://www.dodgeforum.com/recalls-and-tsbs/make_DODGE/model_1500/year_2004/id_0500105/TSB.htm
TOYota Brakes
TSB BR004-02

And to put things in context, here's a list of TSBs for 2003 for major makers.
For your reading pleasure. All are 2003 Models

Chevy has 86

Bulletins for 2003 Chevy Truck C 1500 P/U 2WD V8-325 5.3L VIN T SFI


Emissions Recalls
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 02059 DEC 02 Recall - Emissions, Spark Plug Replacement

General Recalls
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 03011 MAR 03 Campaign - Keyless Entry System Inoperative
02066 DEC 02 Campaign - BCM Reprogramming for Battery Drain

Service Bulletins
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 03-06-04-037 JUL 03 Emissions - SES Lamp ON/DTC P0446 (EVAP) Set
03-00-89-021 JUL 03 Instruments - DIC Perceived Fuel Economy Settings
03-02-36-002 JUL 03 Steering - Revised Service Procedures
03-09-41-003 JUL 03 Restraint System - Proper Air Bag System Diagnosis
01-06-01-011A JUL 03 Engine - Oil Consumption Information
03-07-30-032 JUL 03 Interior - Buzz/Vibration Felt in Floor/Throttle Pedal
03-08-64-025 JUL 03 Body - Left Camper Mirror Won't Lock Into Detent
01-01-39-003A JUL 03 A/C - Catastrophic Compressor Failure Debris Removal
01-01-38-006B JUL 03 A/C - R-134A System Flushing Procedure
03-08-44-011 JUN 03 Audio System - Tweeter Rattles in Front Door(s)
03-08-64-022 JUN 03 Interior - Front Door Trim Panel Removal Precaution
02-08-46-010C JUN 03 OnStar(R) - French Voice Recognition Programming
03-01-39-008 JUN 03 A/C - System Changes/Synchronization
03-08-49-009 JUN 03 Instruments - Revised Oil Pressure Gauge Diagnostics
00-08-42-010A JUN 03 Lighting - DRL Bulb Replacement
03-07-30-020A JUN 03 A/T - Harsh/Slipping 1st to 2nd Gear Shifts
03-06-04-032 JUN 03 Engine Controls - MIL ON/Low Voltage DTC's Set
03-06-04-033 JUN 03 Engine Controls - Revised DTC P0336 Diagnostics/Repair
03-03-08-002 JUN 03 Suspension - Rattle/Squeak From Front of Vehicle
99-07-30-022A JUN 03 A/T - Shift Stabilization/Tow/Haul Mode Feature
03-08-64-018 JUN 03 Body - Outside Rearview Mirror Courtesy Lamp Falls Out
03-06-04-031 JUN 03 Engine Controls - Revised DTC P1125 Information
01-08-46-002C JUN 03 Navigation/GPS System - OnStar(R) Module Programming
03-01-39-007 MAY 03 A/C - Intermittently Inoperative/Blows Warm Air
03-06-04-030 MAY 03 Fuel System - Possible MIL ON/Driveability Symptoms
00-05-23-005B MAY 03 Brakes - Accelerated Right Rear Inner Brake Pad Wear
01-08-97-001A MAY 03 Auxiliary Equipment - Homelink (R) Transmitter Testing
03-08-49-006 MAY 03 Instruments - High beam Indicator Too Bright
99-08-52-005A MAY 03 Keyless Entry System - Operational Characteristics
03-07-30-007 APR 03 A/T - Apparent Delayed Gear Engagement
03-07-29-004 APR 03 M/T - Operating Characteristics
03-03-10-001A APR 03 Tires/Wheels - Tire Slowly Flattens/Vibration
03-08-64-010 MAR 03 Body - Rearview Mirrors Blow in at Highway Speeds
99-01-39-007B MAR 03 A/C - Automatic A/C Functional Description
03-01-38-001 MAR 03 A/C - System Sealers/Leak Detection Guidelines
02-08-44-020B MAR 03 Audio System - No Audio From Speakers At Times
00-05-22-002B MAR 03 Brakes - Rotor Service Guidelines
03-08-52-001C MAR 03 Keyless Entry System - Won't Operate
02-08-42-001A MAR 03 Lighting - Polycarbonate Headlamp Damage Prevention
99-07-30-017A FEB 03 A/T - Oil Cooler Flushing/Flow Check Procedures
02-05-26-002A FEB 03 Brakes - Scraping Noises From Rear of Vehicle
03-06-04-015 FEB 03 Driveability - Revised Engine Cranks Won't Run Diagnosis
03-06-01-003 FEB 03 Engine/Transmission - Flexplate/Flywheel Replacement
03-03-10-002 FEB 03 Hubcaps - Loose/Rattling
03-03-07-001 FEB 03 Wheel Alignment - Revised Specifications
99-08-64-016A JAN 03 Body - Weatherstrip Maintenance
03-06-04-012 JAN 03 Electrical - Wiring Harness Inspection Recommendations
03-08-50-001 JAN 03 Interior - 2nd Row Seat Center Armrest Panel Warping
03-08-50-003 JAN 03 Interior - Seat Heater/Power Memory Seat Inoperative
03-08-52-001 JAN 03 Keyless Entry - System Inoperative
00-02-35-003B JAN 03 Steering - Clunking Noise From Under Hood
99-03-10-009A JAN 03 Wheels/Tires - Wheel Weight Usage
01-07-30-042A DEC 02 A/T - 2-3 Upshift or 3-2 Downshift Clunk Explanation
01-07-30-036B DEC 02 A/T Controls - DTC P0756 Diagnostic Tips
02-06-03-006A DEC 02 Electrical - Testing Before Replacing Battery or Alt
02-06-01-038 DEC 02 Engine - Knocking or Lifter Noise
02-03-10-008 DEC 02 Wheels/Tires - Recommended Wheel Nut Torque
02-07-30-032A NOV 02 A/T - TCM Fast Learn Procedure Requirement
02-01-39-007 OCT 02 A/C - Automatic Dual Zone A/C Battery Draw
99-07-30-016B OCT 02 A/T - Intermittent Downshift/Slip/Cycling Diagnosis
02-08-44-018 OCT 02 Audio System - Diagnostics for No Sound From Speakers
02-08-44-017 OCT 02 Audio System - Steering Wheel Radio Source Selection
02-06-03-009A OCT 02 Battery - Charging/Information Tips
02-06-03-010 OCT 02 Battery - Parasitic Drain Information
02-05-23-004 OCT 02 Brakes - 'Reduced Brake Power' Shown on DIC
02-05-22-004B OCT 02 Electrical - Trailer Brakes Applied With Headlamps ON
02-08-42-005 OCT 02 Lighting - Snowplow Roof Beacon Inoperative
02-03-07-002 OCT 02 Steering/Suspension - Revised Camber/Caster Adjustment
02-07-30-004A SEP 02 A/T - Allison 1000(R) Grade Brake Feature
02-09-41-002 SEP 02 Air Bag System - Lamp ON/DTC B0092 Set
02-08-49-007 SEP 02 Interior - Console Lid Hard to Open/Close
02-07-30-030 AUG 02 A/T - 1st to 2nd gear Shift Shudder
01-08-66-005B AUG 02 Body - Pickup Box Reinforcement Kit Availability
01-08-66-014A AUG 02 Body - Pickup Box Sheet Metal Fracture/Damage
02-06-03-008 AUG 02 Charging System - Low Voltage Display ON/Dim Lights
02-06-01-028 AUG 02 Engine - Crankcase Flushing Recommendations
02-04-17-001A JUL 02 Drivetrain - Launch Shudder/Vibration On Acceleration
01-08-64-014A JUL 02 Interior - Lock Lever Comes Loose From Door Trim Panel
02-07-30-028 JUN 02 A/T - Serial Number/Site Code Locations/Identification
02-09-41-001 JUN 02 Computers & Controls - DTC's Set When Replacing Modules
02-06-01-026 JUN 02 Engine - Identification Information
02-08-44-007 MAY 02 Audio System (XM) - Negative Impact of Vinyl/Cloth Roofs
99-00-89-019B FEB 02 Warranty - Parts Return Program Explained

Ford has 17


Bulletins for 2003 Ford Truck F 150 2WD Pickup V8-330 5.4L Prop SOHC VIN Z SFI


Service Bulletins
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 03-15-13 AUG 03 Steering - Tie Rod End Inspection Procedures
03-14-8 JUL 03 A/T - Cooler Flushing Service Tips
03-14-4 JUL 03 Ignition System - Engine Misfire Diagnostic Tips
03-11-10 JUN 03 Body - Moonroof Water Leaks/Won't Open Properly
03-11-6 JUN 03 Electrical - Wiring Soldering/Crimping Tips
03-10-3 MAY 03 Fuel System (CNG/LPG) - No Start Condition
03-8-3 APR 03 Engine - Oil Level Indicator Markings
03-7-1 APR 03 Body - Water Leak From Roof Opening Panel
03-6-6 MAR 03 Engine Controls - Bi-Fuel O2 Sensor Diagnostics
03-5-1 MAR 03 Steering - Power Steering Pump Whine Noise
02-23-7 NOV 02 Cooling System - Premium Gold Coolant Service Info
02-22-1 NOV 02 Engine Controls - Engine Surge/Rolling Idle/DTC's Set
02-21-1 OCT 02 A/T - Torque Converter Access Plug Dislodges
02-21-4 OCT 02 Body - Roof Ditch Material Cracking
02-21-13 OCT 02 Engine - Cylinder Head Straightedge Surface Check
02-20-8 OCT 02 A/C System - Diagnosis and Service Tips
02-17-6 SEP 02 A/T - Inadvertent Shift Interlock Disabling

Dodge has 14

Bulletins for 2003 Dodge Truck RAM 1500 1/2 Ton 2WD Pickup V8-345 5.7L VIN D Hemi

Service Bulletins
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title 08-019-03 JUN 03 Lamp Out Indicator - ON with Utility Bed Installed
24-004-03 JUN 03 A/C - Lack of Air from Floor Vents
23-016-03 JUN 03 Body - Buzzing/Vibration from Front of Vehicle
23-018-03 JUN 03 Interior - Instrument Panel Whistling Sound
24-003-03 MAY 03 A/C - System Sealer Usage Prohibition
18-005-03A APR 03 Engine Controls - MIL ON/Erratic A/T Shifting
08-008-03 APR 03 Audio System - CD Changer Operation/Features
18-013-03 MAR 03 Engine Controls - MIL/ETC Lamp ON/DTC's Set/Poor Idle
18-008-03 MAR 03 Engine Controls - Co-Pilot Support/Cable Selection
13-001-03 FEB 03 Body/Frame - Frame Alteration Guidelines/Precautions
24-009-02 OCT 02 A/C - System Leak Detection
18-024-02 AUG 02 Engine Controls - Incorrect VIN Affects PCM Programming
21-002-02 JUL 02 A/T - Diagnostics/Labor Time Revisions
22-001-02 MAR 02 Chrome Wheels - Care and Maintenance

Toyota has 10


Bulletins for 2003 Toyota Truck Tundra 2WD V8-4664cc 4.7L DOHC (2UZ-FE) MFI

Service Bulletins
TSB Number Issue Date TSB Title PG005-03 AUG 03 Wheels/Tires - Spare Tire Carrier Operation
SS002R-01 JUN 03 Engine Controls - ECU Flash Reprogramming Process
EL009-03 JUN 03 Navigation System - Map Screen Is Blank
EL006-03 MAY 03 Instruments - Oil Pressure Gauge Reads Low
EG003-03 FEB 03 Exhaust System - Sulfur Smell
EL008R-02 JAN 03 Keyless Entry - Transmitter Programming/Identification
PG027-02 DEC 02 Steering/Suspension - Ball Joint Inspection
BO017-02 SEP 02 Interior - Seat Belt Extender Availability
BR004-02 SEP 02 Brakes - Front Brake Vibration
EG007-02 MAR 02 Valve Cover Oil Baffle - Damage Prevention

Maybe Nissan isn't doing so bad afterall. Remember, these aren't 1st year vehicles. A 2006 list from Nissan would be similar comparision.

Like I said, the brake pads and rotors were and issue throughout Nissan. This is a similar problem to what we were having. The pads were replaced for acclerated wear and excessive dusting. The rotors for warping. They had this problem in the '03 and '04 G35 and '04 and '05 Armadas, Titans, etc. Not sure how posting info about what I was saying proves a point for you. :confused:

Do you make it a point to not pay attention to any of the facts I've presented. Each of the three links I posted insdicate the issue was from increased wear. It is NOT the same problem with brake judder that the Titan/Armada is having. Is there a problem with the early G35 non-Brembos. Yes. Is it the same problem. No. That was my point.

Here was your post in regards to the G's brakes:

The "fix" was more mass near the center and a different parts supplier. They had problems with this supplier for ALL Nissans. My '04 G35 had the same problem. They recalled these and the new brakes ARE better than any other stock system. The problem wasn't poor design, it was poor parts supplier.

Here was my response:

The G35's did not have the same problem. The problem for the G35's were that the brakes wore out too quickly. There is no indication that the G35 rotors were warping under normal use.

And somehow you've managed to avoid the entire issue about the rotational mass and braking. The last you said about it was that you never said anything about rotational mass having no effect on braking. I simply pointed out this was not the case.

I'm not sure what point you're making exactly with the links to the other cars. This still says nothing as to whether or not the Armada/Titan brakes are "over-engineered". But as I said, we can agree to disagree here. I just don't feel adequate is equivalent to over-engineered. Hell, if you want to call it better-engineered, fine as far as I'm concerned. But it is subjective so I'm not going to keep going down this road.

The total number of TSB's have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Noone is questioning the overall quality of the Titan/Armada here.

Its about time to wrap this up. This thread no longer addressing the original post. You both should agree that you disagree and move on.

Lock it down! PLEASE! Hahahahaha!