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Discussion Starter #1
I presume the issue of front rotor repairs is a Service negative or if rotar replacement is the alternative, wouldn't the rear set of rotars need to be replaced also if the change up is to slot/drilled aftermarket rotars? I don't have judder problems yet on my '05 SE, but I can assume from all the discussion here that it is inevitable. The Armada is an outstanding effort by Nissan to compete with large SUV market. It looks better than anything on the street as big because of it's unique proportions and aggressive styling. It's a little difficult to understand why, with all the tech and reserach done by the design engineers for this vehicle that there has not been an immediate high quality fix for the braking system. I intend to purchase a set of high quality slot/drilled rotors that will work with the existing pads and components and have the Dealer Service do the installtions as no cost. Granted there may be warranty issues, but anything would be better than re-cutting rotors having constant deterioration with heat build up and warping. It's a matter of confifence and safety. It's my world road beast, and has do everything in transportation for me. It deserves the best. Any additional comments are appreciated.
 

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Brakes

I have about 500 miles on my updated brakes. The rotors are larger (I had the 04) and they use different pads. I get very little brake dust where before I would drive around the block and the wheels were black (I can go all week and they still are better than going 1 mile on the old set up). The new brake fix also is in the rear. They turned the rear rotors and gave me new dustless pads there too.

I think the old problem has more to do with the pads overheating and glazing the rotors than the rotors warping. Normally of rotors warp they stay warped. It used to clear up as soon as the rotors cooled for me. Slotted rotors would help with the glazing problem but if you are using the stock pads (maybe 05 is different, not sure because I have seen 05's with dirty wheels too). anyway if you are using stock pads and change rotors on your own it may only cure half the problem.

Even with the judder it stops just as fast so it is not that large of a safety problem. I would wait until you have a problem because they do have the real fix now and it really makes it a non issue after it is done. I don't think you could say the same thing if you do the rotors yourself, plus it is free.

I bought my 04 knowing it would do this and was prepared to install a big brake kit (I buged Stop Tech to make one for stock wheels, the Stillen one just didn't do it for me). That is the furthest thing from my mind now that I have the fix.
 

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ERBERTIS said:
I presume the issue of front rotor repairs is a Service negative or if rotar replacement is the alternative, wouldn't the rear set of rotars need to be replaced also if the change up is to slot/drilled aftermarket rotars? I don't have judder problems yet on my '05 SE, but I can assume from all the discussion here that it is inevitable.
Hi,
The front rotors on all cars handle approximately 80% of the braking job. The rear design is more than adequate to handle the load.
Slotted rotors are ok, but they wear away brake pads rapidly. The idea behind a slotted rotor is it will evacuate gases trapped under the pads allowing for a stronger grip. However, brakes are really giant heat sinks. After they heat up to a certain point, brake fade sets in. On standard street brakes, this happens after a few good brakes in a short time. Slots don't help this, which is a much greater need. BTW, this heat build up is not responsible for warping. Brakes warp from extreme heat, which occurs at a during moment of an extra hard stop, not over time. The extra mass stops the warping.

Drilled rotors are really mostly for show. The idea for drilled rotors was again to let gases escape. This time, they weaken the rotors dramatically. Drilled rotors have a history of cracking. Not one maker will warranty their drilled rotors, including Baer. I would not use them on any serious road racer or daily driver.

Brakes standard on corvettes are plain rotors without drills and slots. They increase the mass of the rotors and cooling air flow to increase the braking power. Race cars such as the GTR vettes use slotted rotors as they don't care about pad wear. Because of the extra mass, neither has warping issues, just brake fade issues. And vette brakes can get cherry red glowing at night.

ERBERTIS said:
The Armada is an outstanding effort by Nissan to compete with large SUV market. It looks better than anything on the street as big because of it's unique proportions and aggressive styling. It's a little difficult to understand why, with all the tech and reserach done by the design engineers for this vehicle that there has not been an immediate high quality fix for the braking system.
The new rotors and pads made their debut in May. The new design has more mass, which increased by 5%. It also has superior cooling ducts. The new pads come from a different vendor. Nissan had a contact with a pad vendor which it has cancelled. They had problems throughout their lineup, which have been fixed, including my G35. Toyota Sequoia and Tundra had similar problems. The main difference between the two was Nissan had a fix in 18 months, Toyota took 48 months to admit their was a problem.

ERBERTIS said:
I intend to purchase a set of high quality slot/drilled rotors that will work with the existing pads and components and have the Dealer Service do the installtions as no cost. Granted there may be warranty issues, but anything would be better than re-cutting rotors having constant deterioration with heat build up and warping. It's a matter of confifence and safety. It's my world road beast, and has do everything in transportation for me. It deserves the best. Any additional comments are appreciated.
It would be a waste of money. You'll spend a grand on something weaker that may fail when you need it and kill your brake's warranty. The existing pads are problem and cheap to replace. The new brake rotors are free as are the pads. They also have been met with great success with many people saying they have truly fixed the problem. Most experience stronger braking. less dust, and no warping. I would have the dealer install the new brake parts. They should be in stock by now. They are at the dealers around here. I would have far less confidence in drilled rotors vs. stock as they are prone to cracking leaving you with much less braking power when you need it. Imagine towing a trailer and boom, 40% of your braking power is gone and it's pulling hard to one side. :eek:

I would try the new brakes. Since they're free, they won't cost you anything to try. If you still want an upgrade, get slotted rotors without drills, like brembos, and get some good pads like Raybestos, EBC Green, or Hawk. I would only get the drilled brakes if you are going with DUBS and don't plan on doing any serious driving, just some around town stuff. ;)

If you have additional questions, I'd email these guys. They are the ones who supply the Corvette race teams with their brakes. And you'll notice they have slotted but not a single drilled rotor on the site. ;)
http://www.vbandp.com/default.aspx
 

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From Baer Brakes website, a leader in brake rotors and brake parts.

"Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, it is primarily a visual enhancement behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.

Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential "stress risers" from which cracks can occur. Baer´s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings."

Like I said, they also don't offer a warranty. ;)
 

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Brakes

My final .02

Slotted rotors, where the slot does not pass all the way through the rotor is just as strong as a rotor with no slot (or very negligable difference). As stated above the slot gives a path for gasses to escape. Those gasses are what cause fade. The hotter the pads get the more gasses expel from the pads which build up between the pad and disk. You end up pushing harder on the pedal to compensate for the pads lifting from the disk (ala brake fade). To dismiss slotted rotors as simply a visual mod is preposterous. Anyone who has tried both types on the same car can tell you slotted is better at all speeds. You get a very noticeable increase in initial bite. Braking is more consistent as they heat up. The increased wear factor is also debateable. Slotted rotors keep your pads cleaner so you will notice alot less gauling (those little stripes that form on your non-slotted rotors).

One more thing, there are other brake manufacturers out there besides Baer that may offer a waranty. Brembo, and Stop Tech come to mind. However, most drilled or slotted rotors from these companies are oversized and designed for racing (designed to shorten your stopping distance, not just look cute). I admit here I have not done my homework so I am unsure about the warranty issue. You will be hard pressed to find any manufacturer that will warrant any racing product for obvious reasons. But you will hear it on the appropriate boards if their products fail. Do your homework before you buy.

I have seen a Brembo rotor that had been used for racing. All Brembo rotors are drilled (actually I think the holes are cast in place, not 100% sure). They come as original equipment on all the most exotic sports cars like Ferarri, Porsche, even Nissan and Infinity offer them on the Z and G35. So as far as quality they are amoung the best of the best. This drilled rotor (which was actually a stock replacement size for a BMW, not oversize) did have short hairline cracks coming out of nearly all of the holes. This rotor was worn very thin and that is why it was taken out of service (because the caliper pistons would be in danger of popping out) . The cracks in this case would probably not be a cause for concern, this rotor was done and it had been put through much more than any of us can dish out on the street. What I am getting at is just because there is a hairline crack does not equall your wheels falling off. Remember all rotors are cast. And cracks are very common in most castings (i.e. it is safe to say we all have small cracks in our rotors to some degree).

Now that we all feel safe . . :eek:

The point I wanted to make is not to dismiss a slotted rotor as a decoration (because it doesn't come standard on a Corvette). We have choices. The OEM brake fix probably being the best choice for most of us. But there are kits out there that will greatly increase performance depending on how much you want to spend. And someone willing to spend that kind of money is probably not worried about a warranty on brakes that are no longer there.

Chrisarmada
 

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chrisarmada said:
My final .02

Slotted rotors, where the slot does not pass all the way through the rotor is just as strong as a rotor with no slot (or very negligable difference). As stated above the slot gives a path for gasses to escape. Those gasses are what cause fade. The hotter the pads get the more gasses expel from the pads which build up between the pad and disk. You end up pushing harder on the pedal to compensate for the pads lifting from the disk (ala brake fade). To dismiss slotted rotors as simply a visual mod is preposterous. Anyone who has tried both types on the same car can tell you slotted is better at all speeds. You get a very noticeable increase in initial bite. Braking is more consistent as they heat up. The increased wear factor is also debateable. Slotted rotors keep your pads cleaner so you will notice alot less gauling (those little stripes that form on your non-slotted rotors).

One more thing, there are other brake manufacturers out there besides Baer that may offer a waranty. Brembo, and Stop Tech come to mind. However, most drilled or slotted rotors from these companies are oversized and designed for racing (designed to shorten your stopping distance, not just look cute). I admit here I have not done my homework so I am unsure about the warranty issue. You will be hard pressed to find any manufacturer that will warrant any racing product for obvious reasons. But you will hear it on the appropriate boards if their products fail. Do your homework before you buy.

I have seen a Brembo rotor that had been used for racing. All Brembo rotors are drilled (actually I think the holes are cast in place, not 100% sure). They come as original equipment on all the most exotic sports cars like Ferarri, Porsche, even Nissan and Infinity offer them on the Z and G35. So as far as quality they are amoung the best of the best. This drilled rotor (which was actually a stock replacement size for a BMW, not oversize) did have short hairline cracks coming out of nearly all of the holes. This rotor was worn very thin and that is why it was taken out of service (because the caliper pistons would be in danger of popping out) . The cracks in this case would probably not be a cause for concern, this rotor was done and it had been put through much more than any of us can dish out on the street. What I am getting at is just because there is a hairline crack does not equall your wheels falling off. Remember all rotors are cast. And cracks are very common in most castings (i.e. it is safe to say we all have small cracks in our rotors to some degree).

Now that we all feel safe . . :eek:

The point I wanted to make is not to dismiss a slotted rotor as a decoration (because it doesn't come standard on a Corvette). We have choices. The OEM brake fix probably being the best choice for most of us. But there are kits out there that will greatly increase performance depending on how much you want to spend. And someone willing to spend that kind of money is probably not worried about a warranty on brakes that are no longer there.

Chrisarmada
They don't use them on race cars. They use slotted, but not drilled. The slots don't do much for the pressures street brakes generate. The slots are good for the super high temps reached by true race cars. NO MAKER OFFERS A WARRANTY ON DRILLED ROTORS. Not these may, there is none. Brembo does offer "drilled" rotors with the holes cast as does BAER. By doing it in the cast, it doesn't cause stress areas that are more prone to crack as actual drilling does. The context I use for crack here is crack to failure, not hairline.
As for corvettes, they use as I said slotted rotors on their GT cars. They do not however use drilled. Brembo rotors for racing are also not drilled. Here is their link. http://www.brembo.com/ENG/Racing/News/List/20040404.htm They do make high performance brakes that are drilled and slotted, but the true race stuff isn't.

Here's a discussion I found:
I have been bombarded with lots and lots of people asking me the differences between drilled vs. slotted. I will do my best to explain all I can in my words and opinions, which are shared by many top-notch racers and builders around the world. Although there are those who oppose our views, this is not to become a finger pointing session. Nearly an informative episode for those of you left scratching your heads about rotors.

Ever since the mid 50’s there has been a constant debate about what makes a proper rotor. The future MAY BE carbon fiber and ceramic compounds, but the present for most of us is cast iron.

The first upgrade from a basic rotor is usually vents – the rotor consists of 2 flat outside surfaces with vanes in between. That vent and vane arrangement is for cooling, and works by drawing hot air from the center of the rotor to be expelled from the outer diameter – acting as a centrifugal air pump, not by scooping air in.

Slots – A radial groove cut into the surface of the disc – serve a couple of purposes. One of those is to help remove debris from the disc surface; the other is to help expel gases created when braking.

In older material used to create performance braking systems, drivers and engineers noticed a gas boundary layer that appeared at the interface area of the pad and rotor (Where the pad and rotor came in contact). However these days it is not as big of a problem, slots are more than adequate to carry that gas away.

In those years where the older materials where used, that gas boundary, along with reducing weight, led to the popularity of drilled rotors. However, in the intervening period, the myth has persisted that cooling is the main reason for drilling rotors. Anyone that tells you that drilling rotors makes the disc run cooler, needs their medication checked! Although there is a belief among some that drilling can have a slight effect of cooling by drawing additional air in to the vanes, even those that subscribe to that theory say drilled rotors are more of a liability than a benefit.

Drilled holes tend to be stress risers and they tend to be a stress concentrator. Therefore a drilled rotor will tend to have a shorter life than an undrilled rotor. The contribution a drilled rotor made to the system, reducing gas and debris, can be accomplished with a slot. Not only will rotor life be shorter, but also an on-track failure is likely to be more catastrophic than most with a non-drilled disc.

To drill or not to drill? The simple answer is that you – the end user, consumer, racer, whatever – should never drill rotors. You may choose to purchase drilled rotors, but even that is becoming a trend of the past left to the car show crowd, and those guys from Germany! LOL! NASCAR, CART, IRL, WRC, and others are switching to slotted rotors instead of drilled rotors, mainly because of their proneness to cracking. Slotting actually removes less surface area than cross drilling, while maintaining its strength and high coefficient of friction. Thus, you have cooler running rotors.

The bottom line here is that drilled discs will run hotter because there is less surface area through which to manage and displace the heat generated by braking forces. This is why I am a firm believer in the value and effectiveness of slotted rotors. If companies attempt to displace those heating properties more by drilling bigger wholes, then the overall integrity of the rotor becomes more compromised, especially if they are using a smaller diameter rotor.
So in conclusion, if you truly want sturdy brakes that have better braking power, get slotted rotors. Pads, calipers, etc. are a different discussion.
 

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Another one.

If you want pretty rotors that all the ricers will gawk at and Ooo and Ahh over, get drilled rotors - otherwise stay away. Drilled rotors are far more prone to cracking than non-drilled. The idea that the holes cause the rotor to shed heat quickly is a joke. This topic has been talked about to death on Team3S and Team 3S Racers and their is overwhelming agreement that cross drilled rotors are best for looking pretty and not much else.

Below is a rebuttal from Team3S regarding the Brembo FAQ about how wonderful drilled rotors are: Read it. It goes to show how advertising can be misleading.

What it SAYS: "Brembo has extensively studied and tested cross-drilling
versus casting the holes in place and found no significant effect on
performance or durability.":
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What it MEANS: "We saw a 30% failure rate on the track, but since 97% of you
will never use these on the track, we don't regard this flaw affecting 3% of
users to be *significant*. Most of you won't notice the difference if our
drilled rotors warp when they're heated up, since you'll be killed or arrested
if you ever run them that hard on the street. Besides, it would cost us too
much to make them as good as Porsche cast rotors, and you'd never buy them if
we told you that anyway."

What it SAYS: "The main advantages of drilled and slotted discs are the
same: increased brake "bite", and a continuous refreshing of the brake pad
surface."
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What it MEANS: "This is very much to OUR advantage, because drilled holes
'gouge' out the surface of the pad as they pass over them. The 'refreshing'
of the pad surface means that it wears away more quickly, creating an
increasingly thinner pad with each use..., which is also to our advantage--
The thinner pads will become hot much sooner, causing them to crack and
crumble prematurely. Thusly, you'll have to buy our pads more frequently,
making us more money."

What it SAYS: "Drilled discs have the additional advantage of being lighter
and running cooler."
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What it MEANS: "We use less material in our drilled rotors, which saves us a
great deal of money. As long as the brakes are not applied, air passing over
the lesser-mass rotor will keep it cooler, when compared to an undrilled rotor
at full mass. Conversely, they will also heat up faster, since there is less
metal to absorb heat, but we don't see the need to discuss that, since then
you won't buy our product."

What it SAYS: "However, there are certain pad materials that should not be
used with a drilled disc."
----------------
What it MEANS: "We have to cover our ass here-- if you buy the pads we
recommend for the street and you use them on the track, they will fail rather
quickly. In fact, so will most of the track pads we sell as premium products.
BUT, if you are willing to spend the $300 each for the custom-made
diamond-carborundum +++ pads we recommend for extreme applications, you *may*
get the same results we did in our testing sample. Or not."

What it SAYS: "Braking generates heat, and the more heat the disc can absorb
and dissipate, the greater the fade resistance of the system."
----------------
What it MEANS: "This happens to be true, but we're not saying that it
applies to our product - it's just a general fact. What we're telling you
here is that our lower-mass rotor will absorb less heat, but you probably
think that's a good thing, since we threw in this unrelated factoid. We're
banking on the fact that you're as dumb as a rock, and that you can't fathom
the significance of what we say - as long as we use the right buzzwords to
hypnotize you. You'll believe *anything* we tell you, as long as there is
water splashing or dust flying off the wheels in our commercials."

What it SAYS: "Additionally, the use of a larger disc generally results in a
larger effective radius, which increases brake torque."

----------------
What it MEANS: "This really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but...
We've got to plant the subliminal seed of (whisper) *Upgrade, upgrade...* in
your tiny little brain. You haven't a clue if 'increasing brake torque' is a
good thing, but it sounds 'bigger', so dammit - we know you'll buy it. You
also don't have the deductive powers to recognize that 'generally' can be as
little as '51% of the time', which means that in the extreme case, 49% of the
time the use of a larger disc will NOT result in a larger effective radius.
And you don't know if that is a good thing either, but since we said it, you
can trust us."
---

"Caveat Emptor", people... ("Let the buyer beware").

Although I wrote the above commentary somewhat "tongue-in-cheek", I'm really
telling you the facts about how a copywriter thinks. I can't remember which
famous "ad man" said it - it was either Bill Bernbach (Doyle Dane Bernbach) or
Jerry Della Femina (Young & Rubicam) - but it is THE truth about that
business: "Advertising is all about selling a product that people don't want,
don't need, and can't afford. And making them feel good after they've bought
it, whether it's useful or not." Advertisers CAN and WILL say *anything* to
sell their product, including throwing a bunch of twisted facts at you until
you only see the buzzwords, not the meaning. If the above quotes are the best
Brembo can do, that cross-drilled, non-cast rotor must *really* suck. IMHO... "

---------------
That's the message... If you don't believe it, go ask what the majority of 3/S road racers run on the track, you won't find cross drilled on anyone who is serious about racing. Again, cross drilled is fine for certain applications... If your car is just a daily driver and you dont often brake hard or from fast speeds, cross drilled should suit you fine. However, don't be mislead that cross drilled are somehow superior over standard rotors, they are not. They sure look pretty though.
;)
 

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.01

Guys I think we agree on just about everything. I think you may be fixated on the details and are not looking at the bigger picture. I never said cross drilled was better than slotted. Double check my post. It really depends on the brake system design (more on that below). The drilled disk I saw came off my friends BMW SCCA race car. So at least one guy out there is using them on the track. I am not making a blanket statement there, just what I have seen in that one case. The type of brake used on the track really depends on the class of race car because the rules dictate what you can and can't use. F1 guys dont use slotted or drilled, they use carbon brakes so it is really all over the map on the race track. The guy who sent me to brembo web site, every web page there has drilled rotors. They even make them for 18 wheelers for Pete's sake. I am not sure I followed your point there.

I disagree with both of you on the following:
I disagree with the reasoning behind the pads being refreshed as causing them to wear out quickly. In my experience with the slotted rotors that I have on my daily driven BMW. When they say "refreshed" in the post above to me it means the little rocks and grime that are picked up while you drive with your foot off the brake (effectively a bump, contamination on the face of your brake pad, not the disk) get sheared off into the slot. Contamination does not imbed into your pads like it would on a standard design and therefore do not gaul your disks as easily. Because there is much less gauling, the surface area of the disks stay equal over the life of the pad and disk. The car tends to track straighter under braking throughout the life of the pad / disk. To me that alone is a performance increase. They only cost $10.00 more than a standard rotor. I am never going back to standard no matter what you guys say.

I think we all agree the initial bite is better with slotted rotors. All the posts you have quoted say this. I concur. From my experience on my car I get a much improved initial bite (I would estimate about a 10-15% improvement in initial braking power). This is initial, when you first hit the pedal, before any heat has built up. This is the situation nearly every time you hit your brakes on the street so pedal effort is effectivly reduced. Super high heat applications are handled more by the pads than the disk. You guys have been naming all the race pads (Hawk etc) out there which are designed for those applications (autocross/track days). Those pads do not work well on the street because they need the heat to start working. Having a slotted rotor with that type of pad would help it work better when cold, not make it worse.

The final point I didn't agree on is the notion that larger more massive brakes act as a heat sink so the more mass the better. It is true that more mass is a better heat sink which keeps heat away from the pads and the brake fluid. But that heat needs to go somewhere or your rotors will overheat. It is the heat sheading ability that is key for brakes or like you said they will simply turn cherry red, warp and then stop working. Also we are talking road course performance so you want less unsprung weight, not more (less massive not more). The more expensive designs will have a light weight carrier (Aluminum) with a large steel disk to reduce mass. So ideally a lighter disk that is larger for more leverage on the wheel with good heat sheading ability (a good vane design on the interior and possibly some type of forced air cooling) is what we are after. :hothot:

I agree 100% that drilled disks do not run cooler than non drilled disks (true across the board). But when the design allows, the holes do reduce weight. If properly placed and drilled (as close to a 90 degree burr free edge as possible) they can clean the pads. Every motorcycle I have ridden / raced had drilled rotors and it is typical for those rotors to last the life of the bike without even being resurfaced. Mostly all race bikes have drilled rotors too. My point being it has a purpose other than being cute when the design allows. I agree that for a passenger car application, most stock sized (stock sized is the key statement here because that is the limiting factor) drilled replacement rotors out there are usually not drilled properly (they add a large countersink when deburring them) which cuts the pad cleaning ability, they dont run cooler and we are not racing so the weight advantage wont do you much good, the holes reduce swept area and reduce braking power. Those stock sized drilled replacement disks would fall into the cute category. To put it into perspective, all sport bike motorcycle stock brakes are over designed enough to race on with stock pads. No passenger car can claim that because the brakes tend to be underdesigned (comparatively speaking rotors are too small and or heat cannot be shead adequately in a race or even a sporty application). Stop hard from 100 in a car 1 time and you are done ( usually fade set in before you even stop) where you can do that on a bike over and over again (with drilled rotors). A car with race brakes can do even better.

The over sized drilled disks (big brake kits) generally do not fall into the cute category because there is a measurable performance increase. The larger rotor area compensates for the reduced swept area from the holes so braking power is still increased. Heat sheading is usually better because the design can be more intracate and optimized when somthing is not being mass produced and also despite being larger, big brake kits are often lighter than stock due to exotic materials that are used. And yes they can be drilled and still work much better than stock sized standard rotors. And guess what, if braking force is kept the same as stock (you have to control your foot) they are less stressed and will tend to last longer. The quotes of rotor failure come from racing where the limits are being pushed. Hello but if anyone sold oversized non slotted, non drilled rotors for race applications I gaurantee you we would be having the same failures. It is racing. Lets keep the focus back on street applications.

Come on guys you cant tell me you would refuse delivery of that new Porshe GT because it has drilled rotors and might not stop!? Remember drilled works if the design allows.

Chrisarmada
 

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Porsche makes their own rotors. They aren't made by an aftermarket rotor company.
The mass is critical for initial stops. More mass=more energy can be converted to heat=faster stop and longer before ABS or brake lockup kicks in. Heat shedding ability is critical for preventing brake fade, which occurs after repeated heavy braking, such as in racing moreso than in street driving.

Race rotors specialize in having the heat shedding ability vs. heat soak. They also heat up much more than street and have special pads that work at higher temps. They don't stop very well until the brakes hit a certain level of temp from braking a few times and they have poor cold stopping power. Street rotors have more heat sink ability giving stronger cold stopping ability than race brakes but are more prone to brake fade. An SUV would probably be better off with street instead of race. Even autocross guys often change pads and run different pads, etc. for the track and the street.

I have experienced serious brake fade once(scary :teeth: ), but this was when I was on a road ride with other vettes (mine was the oldest with the smallest brake rotors) and since then I've upgraded to C5 specs and never had any signifigant fade since. :noworries
 

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Brakes - what an issue!! I bought my Armada January of 2004. I had it three weeks when I was driving home from work and when I pushed the brake to stop at the red light, the brake pedal went all the way to the floor and the car kept going! Luckily there was no one in the turning lane next to me and I jumped over there and pushed on the emergency brake which slowed me to a stop, with heart racing! Nissan sent a flatbed tow truck to my house and took the Armada back to the dealership. Two days later they called me and said they fixed the problem. I picked it up and it drove fine - for a week. I was backing out of the garage and when I pushed on the brake pedal, it fell all the way to floor and we rolled across the front lawn together. Again, Nissan sent a flatbed to the house and this time my husband went to the dealership behind it. I don't know what he said but the dealership was contacted by Nissan who told them NOT to touch the vehicle. They sent a Nissan representative from somewhere up North, I don't remember where and two Nissan technicians from California all came to Sutherlin Nissan in Atlanta where my Armada was. They removed the entire brake assembly, hoses and whatever else that goes with it and took it all back to California. They had my vehicle for 3 weeks and gave me a stupid rental car of some sort. When I got it back, the brakes were fixed, it was washed, polished and they even gave me a Gift Certificate for dinner for two! The only thing they told me was that there was "debris" in the master cylinder. I believe they were worried there was about to be a major recall; when I got my Armada, I never even saw another one on the road or anywhere else for months. So it was fairly new. Wow - but it isn't over yet. Since that brake job, I have had it back in the dealership 7 times in 2 years for rotors and pads. They told me, hey, at least I would have new brakes for free for the life of the car. I told them if you think I am going to bring this car in every 3 months for the rest of it's life, you are sadly mistaken!! The last time they fixed it, they changed it out with the new brakes and I haven't had any more problems with the brakes, not even the black, yucky brake dust!! Yippee! (They didn't know it, but I wouldn't have given them back my Mada even if they offered to exchange it for another one. I love mine, brakes or no brakes!)
 
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